Sha'ir Build

[Sobolev]

Hello, ladies and gentlemen!

I'm going to attempt to build a Sha'ir, with your help of course, that could actually be played in a real game.  Has to be playable from level 3 to level 20.  Cannot involve any infinite loops or things that a DM would hit me with several books for.  It can however be quite strong.

I'm actually hoping that along the way I/we will discover some strong options for the Sha'ir, and I might make a handbook for it (if I'm not lazy).

First impression:

Spells known should have at least some combat spells so they can be retrieved in a somewhat timely fashion.

We need a somewhat reliable way to show ourselves spells.  My original idea was perhaps Use Magic Device, but I think Summoning Monsters that have the ability to cast spells would also be a strong option available to us at higher spell levels.  Planar Binding and the like could be quite good here (and clearly showing us a spell isn't a dangerous task, hopefully we can get this at quite a discount).

Thirdly, we at least need a fair number of class levels in order to be able to retain our spells for some amount of time.  I think undue emphasis could be placed on this point however, and I don't think we need 20 levels of this class to be a strong caster.

Fourth, this class has some neat abilities but they aren't particularly strong and there are a lot of dead levels.  Get me out of here!

What do you guys think, and what would be some good ideas for builds?

[OblivionSmurf83]

How do you survive encounters at low levels? I'm just thinking, at level 3, you keep your spells for 3 hours. That means you might prepare your spells in the morning, and run out. Preparing them again is fine, but it takes a few rounds for each individual spell. So, I imagine you need to do something to work around that. Any way of qualifying for Spell Mastery? So you can at least get Uncanny Forethought? You could always take Wizard 1, and then retrain that out when you get some staying power with your Shi'ar spells.

[Sobolev]

How do you survive encounters at low levels? I'm just thinking, at level 3, you keep your spells for 3 hours. That means you might prepare your spells in the morning, and run out. Preparing them again is fine, but it takes a few rounds for each individual spell. So, I imagine you need to do something to work around that. Any way of qualifying for Spell Mastery? So you can at least get Uncanny Forethought? You could always take Wizard 1, and then retrain that out when you get some staying power with your Shi'ar spells.

I think I would play it completely differently, with a mostly empty preparation.  Prepare 2 combat spells or something.  When you get in to combat, cast 1, send your Gen to get you a third.  As long as it's one you know it doesn't take THAT long.  I'm also kicking around the idea of reserve feats to give you something to do while you wait (assuming you don't leave yourself dry).  I will look in to Uncanny Forethought.

[CantripN]

How about Mage of the Arcane Order?

[Havok4]

You could argue that spellcasting progression prcs would progress all parts of the spellcasting ability that the class has, that would allow you to prc out earlier and help with the diplomacy checks you need to make, especially with the duration you keep your spells for.

You will need to get a +10 check by level 3 so you can always get the spells you want by taking 10 when prepping spells. The one in combat will have to be made normally so you will want the check even higher. Pick up the magic blooded template for the Cha boost and a masterwork suit for diplomacy and you can get 6 +5(stat)+2(tool)+2(bluff synergy)+2(sense motive synergy)+3 class bonus=20. So you would be almost sure to pick up whatever spells you want.

I would recommend picking the fire gen as fire damage is really common and you want the thing to stay alive, this also gives you better bonuses against fire.

[Sobolev]

How about Mage of the Arcane Order?

A possibility, though I'm not a fan of Cooperative Spell, and I'm not sure if they technically possess the ability to "prepare and cast" 2nd level spells, emphasis on prepare.  I'll have to read the book the Sha'ir is in later to verify how it's written.  Additionally, while this would let you get yourself a spell in a hurry it may be more of the same sort of thing you're already doing, adding versatility to what you already have going for you (versatility).  That being said, I don't think it's a terrible idea if you're sitting with a bunch of open slots all the time.

You could argue that spellcasting progression prcs would progress all parts of the spellcasting ability that the class has, that would allow you to prc out earlier and help with the diplomacy checks you need to make, especially with the duration you keep your spells for.

You will need to get a +10 check by level 3 so you can always get the spells you want by taking 10 when prepping spells. The one in combat will have to be made normally so you will want the check even higher. Pick up the magic blooded template for the Cha boost and a masterwork suit for diplomacy and you can get 6 +5(stat)+2(tool)+2(bluff synergy)+2(sense motive synergy)+3 class bonus=20. So you would be almost sure to pick up whatever spells you want.

I would recommend picking the fire gen as fire damage is really common and you want the thing to stay alive, this also gives you better bonuses against fire.

I think arguing for extended duration is pushing it, as written it just gives you spells per day and spells known.  It's something to ask your DM perhaps and hope you get lucky.

Also, your bonus should be slightly higher because there are various penalties that you take, regarding the spells that you prepare.  I'm going to have to look up Magic Blooded. Edit: Looks good, but I haven't found if there's an LA for it yet.  It also seems to be 3.0 unless there's a 3.5 version.  Still, bonus to casting stat, penalty to dump stat and spellcraft bonus for ID'ing spells for later seems to be a move in the right direction.

I am pretty in agreement on the fire gen however.  The only thing I could maybe think of is if you plan on summoning a particular type of Genie more than others you might want a Gen of that type.  For energy resistance though, fire seems like a good plan.

[Havok4]

Magic Blooded has a LA of zero. It is found in dragon 306.

[Sobolev]

So that just leaves us with the 3.0 problem.  Also, this is almost all the domain spells you can get, I don't know if any of them are even worth it.

Level 1
Air: Obscuring Mist
Chaos: Protection from Law
Earth: Magic Stone
Fire: Burning Hands
Knowledge: Detect Secret Doors
Law: Protection from Chaos
Luck: Entropic Shield
Sun: Endure Elements
Water: Obscuring Mist

Level 2
Air: Wind Wall
Chaos: Shatter
Earth: Soften Earth and Stone
Fire: Produce Flame
Knowledge: Detect Thoughts
Law: Calm Emotions
Luck: Aid
Sun: Heat Metal
Water: Fog Cloud

Level 3

Air: Gaseous Form
Chaos: Magic Circle against Law
Earth: Stone Shape
Fire: Wall of Fire
Knowledge: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Law: Magic Circle against Chaos
Luck: Protection from Energy
Sun: Searing Light
Water: Water Breathing

Level 4
Air: Air Walk
Chaos: Chaos Hammer
Earth: Spike Stones
Fire: Wall of Fire
Knowledge: Divination
Law: Order's Wrath
Luck: Freedom of Movement
Sun: Fire Shield
Water: Control Water

Level 5
Air: Control Winds
Chaos: Dispel Law
Earth: Wall of Stone
Fire: Fire Shield
Knowledge: True Seeing
Law: Dispel Chaos
Luck: Break Enchantment
Sun: Flame Strike
Water: Ice Storm

Level 6
Air: Chain Lightning
Chaos: Animate Objects
Earth: Stoneskin
Fire: Fire Seeds
Knowledge: Find the Path
Law: Hold Monster
Luck: Mislead
Sun: Fire Seeds
Water: Cone of Cold

Level 7
Air: Control Weather
Chaos: Word of Chaos
Earth: Earthquake
Fire: Fire Storm
Knowledge: Legend Lore
Law: Dictum
Luck: Spell Turning
Sun: Sunbeam
Water: Acid Fog

Level 8
Air: Whirlwind
Chaos: Cloak of Chaos
Earth: Iron Body
Fire: Incendiary Cloud
Knowledge: Discern Location
Law: Shield of Law
Luck: Moment of Prescience
Sun: Sunburst
Water: Horrid Wilting

Level 9
Air: Elemental Swarm
Chaos: Summon Monster 9
Earth: Elemental Swarm
Fire: Elemental Swarm
Knowledge: Foresight
Law: Summon Monster 9
Luck: Miracle
Sun: Prismatic Sphere
Water: Elemental Swarm

[Havok4]

I would recommend picking up the spells that are not on the sorcerer/wizard list as it takes forever to get a divine spell that is not on your list. The ones that are arcane spells you do not really need to bother with.

[Sobolev]

I would recommend picking up the spells that are not on the sorcerer/wizard list as it takes forever to get a divine spell that is not on your list. The ones that are arcane spells you do not really need to bother with.

I would agree, I was particularly looking for utility spells, as it seems like it would take a long time to get a combat spell (1d6+spell level hours is forever) so I was looking for spells you wouldn't normally prepare but might want occasionally if you were another type of caster.  With the list so far though it just looks like a red herring.

[Gods_Trick]

  As much as the race sucks, the +2 diplomacy bonus that half elves get could be useful early on. Hopefully there are better races that offer a dip bonus. 

  If you can cast any of the cure wounds, inflict or SNA spells you could take the Spontaneous Healer, Wounder or Summoner feats to cast them spontaneously from your empty slots. MAD though because its limited to your Wis mod.

[Havok4]

I would agree, I was particularly looking for utility spells, as it seems like it would take a long time to get a combat spell (1d6+spell level hours is forever) so I was looking for spells you wouldn't normally prepare but might want occasionally if you were another type of caster.  With the list so far though it just looks like a red herring.

You are correct. With those restrictions the only thing that is in any way worth it is miracle. I thought it took the rounds time to pick up known divine spells as that makes sense.

[Sobolev]

  As much as the race sucks, the +2 diplomacy bonus that half elves get could be useful early on. Hopefully there are better races that offer a dip bonus. 

  If you can cast any of the cure wounds, inflict or SNA spells you could take the Spontaneous Healer, Wounder or Summoner feats to cast them spontaneously from your empty slots. MAD though because its limited to your Wis mod.

I'm hoping we can do better than Half-Elves, but it's a point worth bringing up.

I actually like the feat idea, it's similar to the Arcane Order idea, but requires less of a commitment (1 Feat vs 7 Levels).  I agree about the MAD though, and I think that will dissuade me as I was planning on dumping Wis like a bad girlfriend.  I'll have to see.  Probably not though.  Good ideas so far.

[raith0]

as far as race goes we can make a fun case for Half-Elf  by adding some fun free templates to it.   

how about a magic blooded half unseelie fey half-elf    thats a net of +4 charisma with no level adjustment.

obviousely this works best with a +0 Aasimar netting a +6 bonus to Cha allowing us to push Charisma to 24 to start with.  starting Diplomacy at +13 for a half elf at first and +11 for every one other than an illiumian

and taking 10 doest work well with the spell retrieving since you would have to wait a lot to get spells. 

reserve feats seem to be a great thing for this class though.  as far as the domain spells that you can get freedom of movement and air walk arent bad Miracle is always going to be usefull at high levels.  and i dont think anyone would complaign about you having miracle and wish at your disposal would they?

[KellKheraptis]

Not to mention Control Winds is kinda like druidic Telekinesis...not a whole lot you can't solve with a tornado that moves with you.

[raith0]

Not to mention Control Winds is kinda like druidic Telekinesis...not a whole lot you can't solve with a tornado that moves with you.

forgot about that

[Sobolev]

Not to mention Control Winds is kinda like druidic Telekinesis...not a whole lot you can't solve with a tornado that moves with you.

You only get it after 1d6+5 hours though.  Also, I can't seem to figure out what the advantage to knowing a domain spell is, since it specifically says "Divine Spells known or not take...".  Any idea?  The only thing I think spells known does for Sha'ir is make spells show up faster, and divine spells are slow.

Edit:
I found it, you specifically take a -6 penalty to get Divine Spells you don't know, so that's the advantage.  So unless you want to waste a spell known on a spell it takes you d6+spell level hours to retrieve, from a limited list (which is posted in its entirety above) I think that's basically a red herring and it should be ignored.  I originally thought once you just needed a random divine utility spell you would use it for that, but this list doesn't seem to help with that as I don't see much utility.

I need to look in to customize domain from Dragon Magazine next to see if that has a positive interaction with this class or not.

Double Edit:

Control Winds lasts long enough that it might be worth it.  I will need to look in to other spells with long durations.

Triple Edit:

I'm going to start color coding the divine spells since they're so limited.  Everything is starting red until I decide otherwise.  The color coding is not necessarily for how good the spell is, but how good the spell is to retrieve as a divine spell.  It's worth noting that the ability to retrieve divine spells allows us to qualify for Divine PrC's even with this limited list.  Sha'ir/Dweomerkeeper might be a good decision though we would need a way to get the Magic domain.  Also Dweomerkeeper specifies you need to convert prepared spells so we'd still need to call up SOMETHING in order to cast the spell.  All in all I think that's probably just giving us redundancy with the mantle although the usual suspect of Supernatural spell still remains.  Divine PrC's are something I should investigate as well.  The list of things I should investigate is getting lengthy.

Current Points of Investigation:
Customize Domain
Domain Spells with usable durations
Divine PrC's

[raith0]

The thing with Divine spells that you can retrieve you need to have seen it cast and successfully made a spellcraft  check to identify it at that time.

so per the RAW of the ability you wont be able to get any divine spell of every level in d6+x hours.  well unless you have a Archivist in the party to learn/cast them for you. 

what i think we should specialize in is Divinations and getting as many spell slots as possible.   step one figure out whats coming over the course of the day with as few as possible spells.  Step 2 choose from every wizard/sorcerer spell as well as any spell you have succesfully identified to solve said proplems.   changing spells needed in the course of minutes if you dont fill all spells slots ups.

now this seems like a rainbow warsnake on HGH and Steriods then amped on superly high concentrations of crack and Andrenaline

[The_Mad_Linguist]

and taking 10 doest work well with the spell retrieving since you would have to wait a lot to get spells.  

Taking 10 does not take 10 times as long.  It takes the same amount of time.

Magic domain can be picked up via dragonwrought kobold + singer of concordance. 

[Sobolev]

The thing with Divine spells that you can retrieve you need to have seen it cast and successfully made a spellcraft  check to identify it at that time.

so per the RAW of the ability you wont be able to get any divine spell of every level in d6+x hours.  well unless you have a Archivist in the party to learn/cast them for you.  

what i think we should specialize in is Divinations and getting as many spell slots as possible.   step one figure out whats coming over the course of the day with as few as possible spells.  Step 2 choose from every wizard/sorcerer spell as well as any spell you have succesfully identified to solve said proplems.   changing spells needed in the course of minutes if you dont fill all spells slots ups.

now this seems like a rainbow warsnake on HGH and Steriods then amped on superly high concentrations of crack and Andrenaline

The part about having seen and made a spellcraft check for is specifically under arcane spells you don't know, not in general.  To cast a divine spell as a Sha'ir per RAW your character just needs to name the spell and have it on those domain lists.  Your DM might ask how your character has ever heard of the spell though, justify it with ranks of spellcraft and knowledge (religion)?  That's between you and him, but RAW is clear.

Edit:
To elaborate so I don't sound like a D-Bag.  Sha'ir spells are split up in to three categories.

Arcane spells you know: 1d4 + spell level rounds.  Nothing required.
Arcane spells you don't know: You need to have seen it and spellcrafted it.  1d6+spell level minutes.
Divine spells: Doesn't matter if you know it or not.  Has to be one of the domains above. 1d6+spell level hours.

and taking 10 doest work well with the spell retrieving since you would have to wait a lot to get spells.  

Taking 10 does not take 10 times as long.  It takes the same amount of time.

Magic domain can be picked up via dragonwrought kobold + singer of concordance.  

Or through my usual method, Contemplative, and since Sha'ir provides the ability to cast certain divine spells I maintain it is a divine spellcasting class!

Super Edit:

I agree with the Divination Idea though, that there be a good one.
Trying to find a good Reserve Feat.  I have personally seen Hurricane Breath used to great effect to give melee characters AoO's, but I'm not familiar with too many others.  Any suggestions on any good ones?