What are your experiences as a minion-controlling Necromancer?

[fuinjutsu]

Finding anything I can raise is a $%^& if the campain keeps throwing monsters above my level and oozes.  Best I saw at level 5 was a bugbear, and I didn't get the chance to raise one.

[AndyJames]

Why does your level compared to the enemy matter, Fuin?

Animate Dead the sucker. It is automatically under your control, and you can affect 2HD/caster level per casting (so unless your enemy is more than 2 times your caster level, you are safe). Your limit is 4 times your caster level.

[fuinjutsu]

Why does your level compared to the enemy matter, Fuin?

Animate Dead the sucker. It is automatically under your control, and you can affect 2HD/caster level per casting (so unless your enemy is more than 2 times your caster level, you are safe). Your limit is 4 times your caster level.

Necrocarnum, not necromancer.  stupid limits

Not that I'd have the money for Black Onyx if I were a necromancer.

[AndyJames]

Oh. You are using the Incarnum route.

Can't help you there, then. My experiences is with a Necromancer Wizard and a Dread Necro.

One thing I have to ask, this being a Necromancy thread: Why do people say that the Dread Necro Advance Learning ability works regardless of levels in Dread Necro? I thought, like all calss abilities, it only triggers when you are x levels in that class and not from PrCs unless specified? It is also not triggered off caster level?

[RobbyPants]

One thing I have to ask, this being a Necromancy thread: Why do people say that the Dread Necro Advance Learning ability works regardless of levels in Dread Necro? I thought, like all calss abilities, it only triggers when you are x levels in that class and not from PrCs unless specified? It is also not triggered off caster level?

I was just looking into that last week (my dread necro just hit level 8, so I'm taking Divine Oracle next level).  I don't have my book handy with me, but IIRC, the Advanced Learning ability is mentioned in the Spells (or Spellcasting) section of the class.  It may also depend on how the individual PrC is worded too. 

That, or I could be entirely off base.

[AndyJames]

Advanced Learning is right after Negative Energy Burst. Definitely not anywhere near the spellcasting section.

It just says: "A dread necromancer gains an additional new spell at 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th level."

I don't see how that can be interpreted to mean that you automatically get them if your HD hits those numbers...

[Kajhera]

I've never played a minion-controlling necromancer, but I have DMed for such.
They take such a delight in making people their minions, and building societies using their minions for the work.   Like every necromancer I DM for turns into a nationbuilder.   They don't need everyone under their control or even undead; but mindless undead make a great unskilled labor force, and minded undead tend to be surprisingly smart. The words most often heard from my players' lips were 'You work for us now' - it became practically their national motto. They built themselves a little utopia powered by the desecrated corpses of their enemies.
Unfortunately one of my DMed-for minion-controlling necromancers I encouraged to be evil a little too much, and the campaign got too depressing for either of us to continue with.   She was fun before I made that mistake, though.
So as a DM, I am often fond of my players being minion-controlling necromancers, as long as they are sensible about it - no bathing the world in shadows or wights, make sure you keep your spawn-creating undead fed without creating uncontrolled spawn, and don't let the captured undead dragon breed with your entire living female populace - and I don't have to do the paperwork.  

[RobbyPants]

Advanced Learning is right after Negative Energy Burst. Definitely not anywhere near the spellcasting section.

It just says: "A dread necromancer gains an additional new spell at 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th level."

I don't see how that can be interpreted to mean that you automatically get them if your HD hits those numbers...

I'll have to look at it later.  I seem to remember it being in both places.  "Advanced Learning" is literally listed where you said, but I thought it was also mentioned, but not by name, in the Spellcasting section.

[AndyJames]

I've never played a minion-controlling necromancer, but I have DMed for such.
They take such a delight in making people their minions, and building societies using their minions for the work.   Like every necromancer I DM for turns into a nationbuilder.   They don't need everyone under their control or even undead; but mindless undead make a great unskilled labor force, and minded undead tend to be surprisingly smart. The words most often heard from my players' lips were 'You work for us now' - it became practically their national motto. They built themselves a little utopia powered by the desecrated corpses of their enemies.
Unfortunately one of my DMed-for minion-controlling necromancers I encouraged to be evil a little too much, and the campaign got too depressing for either of us to continue with.   She was fun before I made that mistake, though.
So as a DM, I am often fond of my players being minion-controlling necromancers, as long as they are sensible about it - no bathing the world in shadows or wights, make sure you keep your spawn-creating undead fed without creating uncontrolled spawn, and don't let the captured undead dragon breed with your entire living female populace - and I don't have to do the paperwork.  

I am with you insofar as I don't mind undead running around. I subscribe to the Playing With Fire philosophy, which means all my mindless undeads have no alignment. They are basically golems. I have nations that use undead (skeletons, generally, because zombies smell bad) as unskilled labour forces. Plough the field 24/7 from here to Africa until the farmer suddenly remembers and yells at them to stop. Carts and ships with treadmills or turning wheels in them for the skeleton "engine". One nation even use them as mobile, self-loading ammunition for their cannons. It was all fun and games until one of the PCs got a thighbone through the lung...

[McPoyo]

I ran a DN in an undead heavy game once. The DM said my rebuking wouldn't be a problem, but every mook-undead he'd throw at us I'd just rebuke, then turn against the heavier stuff as fodder.

When the mooks explode when you kill them innately, it makes it easier.


Ran a game with a warlock using The Dead Walk invocation. That was actually one of the more effective things that character did. He'd delay until after the leap-attacking warblade dropped an enemy, then animate it and go to town for the rest of the fight. Fairly effective tactic, especially against the giants.

[AndyJames]

Advanced Learning is right after Negative Energy Burst. Definitely not anywhere near the spellcasting section.

It just says: "A dread necromancer gains an additional new spell at 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th level."

I don't see how that can be interpreted to mean that you automatically get them if your HD hits those numbers...

I'll have to look at it later.  I seem to remember it being in both places.  "Advanced Learning" is literally listed where you said, but I thought it was also mentioned, but not by name, in the Spellcasting section.

I stand corrected. There is a line in the spellcasting section which states: "Dread necromancers also have the option of adding to their existing spell list through their advanced learning ability as they increase in level (see below)."

I still don't see how that will allow you to gain spells known when you go up in spellcaster levels since it referrences that other section.

[McPoyo]

Advanced Learning is right after Negative Energy Burst. Definitely not anywhere near the spellcasting section.

It just says: "A dread necromancer gains an additional new spell at 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th level."

I don't see how that can be interpreted to mean that you automatically get them if your HD hits those numbers...

I'll have to look at it later.  I seem to remember it being in both places.  "Advanced Learning" is literally listed where you said, but I thought it was also mentioned, but not by name, in the Spellcasting section.

I stand corrected. There is a line in the spellcasting section which states: "Dread necromancers also have the option of adding to their existing spell list through their advanced learning ability as they increase in level (see below)."

I still don't see how that will allow you to gain spells known when you go up in spellcaster levels since it referrences that other section.

Because PrC increases in spellcasting class advancement specifically calls out gaining new spells known, I believe is the logic used by that argument.

[skydragonknight]

Advanced Learning is a separate class feature like a familiar. The "does not gain any other benefits" clause in PrCs is pretty specific in this regard: if it's not under the spellcasting text or table it doesn't advance.

[fuinjutsu]

I did DM a game with a minion controlling (dread) necromancer once.

It was mostly just frustrating keeping track of too many creatures.  I basically had to throw a few bigger monsters his way so he would stop amassing an army of 1 hd skeleton archers.

(and since the party bard had Requiem, those skeleton archers actually packed a decent punch en masse).

[Caelic]

Personally, I've always been a little bit surprised that Juju Zombies didn't get more play in K's handbook.  You can create them with Create Undead at 16th level; it's specifically worded as "a 16th level spellcaster," which could be argued as caster level rather than character level if you think your DM won't beat you.  You can make a Juju zombie out of just about anything (War Troll, Dusk Giant, Black Ethergaunt--whatever,) and they retain all of their attacks and special qualities.

Not bad at all, for a 6th level spell!   Certainly a lot better and more versatile than anything else on the list, or even on the Create Greater Undead list.

Just make sure you keep it firmly under control.

[SiggyDevil]

Relevant to thread...

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/witch_hunter/v11/c055/9.html

[Midnight_v]

Personally, I've always been a little bit surprised that Juju Zombies didn't get more play in K's handbook.  You can create them with Create Undead at 16th level; it's specifically worded as "a 16th level spellcaster," which could be argued as caster level rather than character level if you think your DM won't beat you.  You can make a Juju zombie out of just about anything (War Troll, Dusk Giant, Black Ethergaunt--whatever,) and they retain all of their attacks and special qualities.

Not bad at all, for a 6th level spell!   Certainly a lot better and more versatile than anything else on the list, or even on the Create Greater Undead list.

Just make sure you keep it firmly under control.

Ju-ju zombies... from the unapproachable east right? I can't rember that like at all.

IN anycase. . . subscribed to thread.

[JohnOSevens]

I have to second the "never used Necrocarnum" sentiment from above, but my experience with being a horde-a-mancer was a pretty good one. I went the Spellstitched Necropolitan Dread Necromancer route.

We were playing in a Forgotten Realms game, level 10 I believe. Iirc my build was something like Dread Necro 8 / Cleric 2 with the Undeath and Deathbound domains. I think I used Velsharoon as my deity.

Eventually I marched on Cormyr with a couple of zombie hydras, my personal mount (a zombie Cloaker advanced into Huge size), a handful of giant skeletons (fire giants, I believe), and every corpse from Cormyr to Shadowdale following in my wake. Some of them weren't even controlled, they just sort of shambled along.

This character had four ogre zombies carrying around his altar, too. It was a church bell from a temple of Torm with a permanent Desecrate cast on it. My character's weapon? A +1 Merciful Souldrinking Adamantine warhammer. He used his Animate Dead SLA with a flourish, by using his giant hammer to ring the desecrated church bell.
In a fight, he used the Merciful part to stun his enemies into submission, then used a combination of healing magic and multiples coups-de-grace with the Merciful turned off (leaving only the Souldrinking) to give them negative levels until they turned into free Wights. Most of those he didn't bother to command, just let them wander off as dangerous monsters in his wake.

[X-Codes]

Yes... if you want to see a pretty awesome visual of how this happens, play WC3 and just march 4-or-so necromancers + a level 6 Dreadlord + a full meat meat wagon or two up to an enemy base, unload the meat wagons, and just march everything into the base.  Even as they die, the skeletons will be constantly replaced by the necromancers and eventually the horde of skeletons will just swarm the base.  Inferno adds a nice, big demon w/ AoE damage to the mix, and life-stealing aura keeps the skeletons relatively healthy.  Sleep and Cripple make for nice CC.  Unholy Frenzy is a very nice buff if you bring along some Abominations.

Of course, there was a patch at some point that capped the number of summonable skeletons to 25, making this far less awesome-looking.

[Amechra]

Yes... if you want to see a pretty awesome visual of how this happens, play WC3 and just march 4-or-so necromancers + a level 6 Dreadlord + a full meat meat wagon or two up to an enemy base, unload the meat wagons, and just march everything into the base.  Even as they die, the skeletons will be constantly replaced by the necromancers and eventually the horde of skeletons will just swarm the base.  Inferno adds a nice, big demon w/ AoE damage to the mix, and life-stealing aura keeps the skeletons relatively healthy.  Sleep and Cripple make for nice CC.  Unholy Frenzy is a very nice buff if you bring along some Abominations.

Of course, there was a patch at some point that capped the number of summonable skeletons to 25, making this far less awesome-looking.

HAHA, I don't have that patch! Now where is my copy... 'mutters to self'