Tier System for Classes

[Tshern]

Wow, a factotum could be the single most useful support character ever made. Too bad there's no prestige options, but hey, who needs 'em with 10 or so Font of Inspirations?

Apart from, you know, Chameleon.

[JaronK]

Not a bad selection. Darkstalker is needed if you intend to sneak around.

Yeah, and the character concept in question was "non combat temple raider."  For that, Darkstalker is pretty obvious.  I have no idea what else he's going to take now though, beyond more Fonts. 

One of the reason I was so amused by the idea of Factotums as being one trick ponies was that this was intentionally a non combat skill monkey, and a player who wasn't too familiar with the class yet, and yet he still rocked out in combat while being totally naked.

I've never played a single Factotum and the one I've DMed was a low level one and he had only Font and Darkstalker... Any other decent suggestions?

Well, as I said I believe Craft Wonderous Item works with them (it's a little tricky though, they cast arcane spells as spell like abilities and do have a set caster level, so probably at works, but don't take my word for it).  If it does work it's great, as that just adds to their flexibility.  Silent Spell works with the whole stealth thing, since you can't actually use metamagic wands on spell like abilities.  Quickdraw is great if you can't get Eager weapons and are using Iajuitsu Focus as a primary damage mechanism (which I've seen in both games that have Factotums, as they were both low magic).  Ancestral Relic is a great one, because Factotums have very specific magic weapons that they'd want (Warning and Eager are great since Factotums are so incredible at rapid combat and they remove the need for Quickdraw, Blurstrike is also great with Iajuitsu Focus because it flat foots the enemy, and so on).  Item Familiar is great because they can rock out skills with it even more (hi there IF!). 

I take your word for it.

Or check!  Read up on the class, it's a great one.  The big thing here is that each ability except for mimicing other classes and extra standard actions takes just one Inspiration Point, and the points reset after every encounter, so you really need very few points to basically have more than you need.  3 fonts alone then is basically six abilities of your choice or two standard actions, and that's plenty unless the encounters your DM runs are REALLY long.

Thanks for spreading the conversation a bit. Satisfied my curiosity and opened the discussion on other options. Cheers.

Sure thing.

JaronK

[woodenbandman]

Wow, a factotum could be the single most useful support character ever made. Too bad there's no prestige options, but hey, who needs 'em with 10 or so Font of Inspirations?

Apart from, you know, Chameleon.

So you take a feat to get you class skills that you already have to gain spells that you already have at the expense of inspiration points (which you also already have)?

Although factotum1/X with able learner would be hot.

[JaronK]

Yes, as a one level dip with Able Learner Factotum is fun.

But I'm not sure Chameleon is a great move.  Yes, that would give you access to Chameleon casting which is actually better than Factotum casting, but I don't think it's actually worthwhile.  I could see it happening though.

And hey, isn't that how it's supposed to be?  So that's good, I guess.

JaronK

[Brainpiercing]

Factotum: What the Chameleon should have been.

Uh... if you've ever seen a Chameleon paired with an incantatrix... you would never say that. Unfortunately you DO want the incantatrix buddy, because there's no way the chameleon can keep up enough buffs on his own.

But yeah, JaronK's explanations make the Factotum sound really interesting. Now if only they could also cast divine spells...

[JaronK]

Well, they've got UMD and Opportunistic Piety, so they're okay in that respect.  And technically, their level 19 ability would let them cast any one spell off the Favored Soul list per day if they had the Charisma for it.  So, they can kinda do it.  Spirit Shaman might work too, but it has to be a spontaneous caster because they don't have time to prepare their spells.  Even still, I'm not sure... gonna have to check that one over.  Only having spells for a minute is kinda weird.

JaronK

[BowenSilverclaw]

Don't forget Polymorph shenanigans with those fun MM5 monsters

[Tshern]

Or check!  Read up on the class, it's a great one.

I meant I take your word on the number of inspiration points each of those actions use. I've read the class and I really like it, but haven't had the chance to give it a go. Factotum really suits me, because I am a skill addict...

[Kuroimaken]

Binders are similar in their insane flexibility.

Similar, but not equal. A Binder without a phylactery or Expel Vestige can find himself suddenly quite hosed if he's forced to adapt on the fly. And even with those, he could be severely screwed without Rapid Pact Making.

Frankly, I think Expel Vestige should be a class feature, but that's probably just me. *shrug*

[JaronK]

Yeah, well, you can check that too if you like, Tshern.  Sometimes there's a little too much taking people's word on things and a little too little fact checking around here!

But yes, the Factotum is an incredible skillmonkey class, and I feel the best one before you start into the field of "yes I have skills, but also I'm god, so the skills are just an extra thing I do" area in Tier 1, like the Cloistered Cleric.  

JaronK

[Hida Reju]

Please check out

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1104965

when you get a chance.

[InnaBinder]

Raise Thread
Two characters lost last session (and an NPC)* means I've got two new characters coming in.  One's asking me about Spirit Shaman, the other about the Aspect of Nature variant Druid.  Spirit Shaman strikes me as strong Tier 2.  How far does Druid slide, if at all, with wild shape replaced with Aspect of Nature?

*Link if interested: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2473.msg81201#msg81201

[Achiever_Type]

Since this has been re-animated.  Is Totemist tier 3?  It can do silly things if built right, but sorta fails outside that one role.

[InnaBinder]

Magic of Incarnum , eh ??

Incarnate ought to be Tier 5, but I'm sure some would argue Tier 4 during early game.
Totemist is at least Tier 4.
CO-builds of them usually Dipped Out, or PrC'd away altogether.

Wizard or Cleric (yawn) with Soulcaster and Sapphire Hierarch, make the best MoI stuff.
Psion/Erudite with the Mind's Eye double of Soulcaster, might be the best of this bunch.


SoulDoofus is a Tier 6 unfortunately.
Fighter 2 / Totemist or Incarnate 2 / Fighter on up
Superior by even a Noob's approach.

Totemist is probably high Tier 4, low Tier 3, with the note that it's a great dip class and has a solid PrC option (totem rager).

[Ubernoob]

Magic of Incarnum , eh ??

Incarnate ought to be Tier 5, but I'm sure some would argue Tier 4 during early game.
Totemist is at least Tier 4.
CO-builds of them usually Dipped Out, or PrC'd away altogether.

Wizard or Cleric (yawn) with Soulcaster and Sapphire Hierarch, make the best MoI stuff.
Psion/Erudite with the Mind's Eye double of Soulcaster, might be the best of this bunch.


SoulDoofus is a Tier 6 unfortunately.
Fighter 2 / Totemist or Incarnate 2 / Fighter on up
Superior by even a Noob's approach.

Totemist is probably high Tier 4, low Tier 3, with the note that it's a great dip class and has a solid PrC option (totem rager).

You'd put totemists on the same tier as fighter?  You do realize that they get fucking teleportation, right?

[InnaBinder]

I put Fighter as Tier 5, and I find that totemist isn't quite as spiffy as your favorite class, which I think is still Tier 3.  It's just one man's opinion, of course.  Along with AwakenDMGolem's opinion, which I listed before mine.

[JaronK]

One's asking me about Spirit Shaman, the other about the Aspect of Nature variant Druid.  Spirit Shaman strikes me as strong Tier 2.  How far does Druid slide, if at all, with wild shape replaced with Aspect of Nature?

Sadly, I'm not really familiar with the Spirit Shaman or Aspect of Nature, so I'm not sure.  Likewise, I have limited experience with the Totemist.  So... I'm not willing to rank them.

And yes, Fighters are Tier 5, not Tier 4.  They're high in Tier 5 to be sure, bordering on the bottom of Tier 4, but the fact that Barbarians can generally do most Fighter things better is a big hit against them, plus the fact that they can't do well what they're advertised as doing (being a Warlord, Guard, or Veteran Soldier) also puts them down a bit.

JaronK

[ChristopherGroves]

Spirit Shaman is a tier 2.  It's the sorcerer druid, lacking the wild shape but getting a host of other decent class features and the entire druid spell list.  They only pick spells once a day, but they get more slots than a druid. 

And unlike the Sorcerer and Favored Soul, it gets USEFUL class abilities as you progress, let alone if you PrC out. 


A druid that doesn't take wild shape and takes one of the variants is probably similar in power to a Spirit Shaman. 

[ChristopherGroves]

I'm thinking this is the solution to a problem I'm having for an upcoming game.

I'd love to see this updated w/ Incarnum classes, Dragon Shaman, etc.

I'm not sure Expert belongs that low.  I base this opinion solely on the fact that every expert has UMD as a class skill.  And probably Autohypnosis simply because they can.  And Martial Lore or Truespeak if they wanted (does that make them better Truenamers than Truenamers?  something to consider ...)

[Stratovarius]

One thing to note with Truespeak is that the skill is only useful to those who have Utterances or Recitations as class features, by and large, so it really does nothing for the expert.

Now, where would the Eidolon and the Eidoloncer slot in? (Ghostwalk base classes)