Tier System for Classes

[ninjarabbit]

If the psy warrior had full BAB (which wouldn't unbalance the class) then I'd put it in Tier 3 but honestly psy warriors are a step below the ToB classes for the most part and those are Tier 3.

[JaronK]

Ninja:  Have you played both?  Because one thing that would really help is getting comparisons from people who have played martial adepts and PsyWars and can thus give a good comparison of both.  I don't think there's anyone here who would say that the PsyWar is down at Fighter levels, though I think a comparison between the Hexblade and the PsyWar is hard to make.

Then again, I don't really think the Hexblade is in the center of Tier 4, I think it's a bit low (and the Duskblade is low Tier 3... it's not really at the levels of the Crusader and Warblade, but then again it's not as low as the Hexblade... those two classes were very hard for me to place).

JaronK

[Kuroimaken]

Well, my experience with martial adepts is pretty much limited to Swordsages (I don't like the Crusader flavor and the Warblade seems a little limited to me), but they can be awfully nice to play with. Last time I played one (he was a Bard/Swordsage/Jade Phoenix Mage -- not the most optimized combination, I know) was pretty funny, because every time the DM put us in a situation we normally wouldn't be able to handle, I'd save the day with a cool maneuver (or combination thereof). It's actually pretty funny how close to a 4e battle things got when it was my turn.

That said, tier-wise, I know a lot of people prefer the Crusader due to Thicket of Blades and other nice, potentially "abusable" combos. Even if I tried to compare a martial adept to the Psiwar, though, I think the Psiwar would have a hard time catching up in terms of flexibility, mobility and other niceties adepts have available to them.

[Midnight_v]

Even if I tried to compare a martial adept to the Psiwar, though, I think the Psiwar would have a hard time catching up in terms of flexibility, mobility and other niceties adepts have available to them.

Really?
Based on what exactly?
I mean to say, what leads you to that conclusion, in parts?
  I mean Psi wars can cast polymorph after all ,and doesn't a psiwar have more mobility options than do the martial adepts with the possible exception to the swordsage?
 3 things and an addendum.
1. I find flexibilty a vague term in this case what exactly makes them more "flexible" to me it seems they're doing generally the same things at about the same power levels.
2. Mobility. There are plenty of mobility options for both sides of this but there'e more for the psi-war. Because they get things like Teleports yes but also hustle and slide and swap etc...
3. General niceties: Again vague but these guys for thier powers have all the "general niceities" one can think of really, including the ability to grap spells off any other psionic class power list. Moreso. Things like freedom of movement,
Addendum: I was wrong completely wrong about catapsi, forgive me for the misinformation.

I just wonder if I'm the only one looking at this things "powers" list from the Srd. There's a lot of great stuff there.
...but alas... I digress... I've had my say. I'll speak no more on the matter, for now.

[Ubernoob]

Just something to think about:
Deep impact+hustle+psionic meditation means that the psiwar *can* pull off one of the most potent maneuvers round after round.

Hustle is fricken haus.

Psywars have enough offence options to be low tier 3 (right above swordsages, below crusaders and warblades).  Bump them up to full bab (just a pretty common house rule I've seen) and they are still in that range, but closer to warblades than swordsages.

[Kuroimaken]

Really?
Based on what exactly?
I mean to say, what leads you to that conclusion, in parts?
  I mean Psi wars can cast polymorph after all ,and doesn't a psiwar have more mobility options than do the martial adepts with the possible exception to the swordsage?
 3 things and an addendum.
1. I find flexibilty a vague term in this case what exactly makes them more "flexible" to me it seems they're doing generally the same things at about the same power levels.
2. Mobility. There are plenty of mobility options for both sides of this but there'e more for the psi-war. Because they get things like Teleports yes but also hustle and slide and swap etc...
3. General niceties: Again vague but these guys for thier powers have all the "general niceities" one can think of really, including the ability to grap spells off any other psionic class power list. Moreso. Things like freedom of movement,
Addendum: I was wrong completely wrong about catapsi, forgive me for the misinformation.

I just wonder if I'm the only one looking at this things "powers" list from the Srd. There's a lot of great stuff there.
...but alas... I digress... I've had my say. I'll speak no more on the matter, for now.

Fair enough. I guess if I had to put my finger on it, the answer would be that the system martial adepts use is slightly superior to the system Psiwars do. Sure Psiwars get some options that are more advanced/powerful than the Swordsage's, for example, but their use of them is pretty limited due to that lovely thing called Power Points. At their 'basic' level (i.e. no augmentations), sure, PP cost doesn't seem like such a big deal. But when the costs start to pile up is when you realize how screwed for it you are. Meanwhile, the martial adept is doing the same things he's always done, over and over and over again, without having to worry about running of PPs. This is what I mean when I say that they have more flexibility.

As for mobility, yes, Psiwars win again with having more choices for it -- but they are, AGAIN, stumped due to their overall low progression of PPs. Granted that stuff like Dimension Door and Freedom of Movement are nothing to sneeze at, but you can only rely on them so many times. And when you get to the higher levels, even those won't save you (granted, the same is true for martial adepts, but who -isn't- screwed besides casters on those levels?).

As for 'general niceties', I used this to refer to the class features outside of class power/maneuver progression. All the Psiwar gains are bonus feats. Granted more feats are always nice, but between a feat and an actual class feature, I'd grab the class feature any day. Unnamed bonuses to initiative that stack with Improved Initiative, Improved Evasion, Wis to attack/damage rolls when using strikes, bonuses on saving throws, and Wis to AC WHILE you wear light armor? YES PLEASE! Sense Magic is also pretty darned nifty -- how many bashers gain the ability to identify weapon/armor properties in 10 minutes, at NO COST? Even the darned Wizard has to shove 100 GP down the toilet when he casts Identify.

[Sunic_Flames]

Any with Detect Magic and 5 ranks in Knowledge: Arcana I believe, who purchase a cheap item. And it takes 1 minute.

[awaken DM golem]

PsyWar gets 2 more feats than a Psion. And that's worth giving up 9s, 8s, 7s, and the good up to 6s. Nope
The Mantled PsyWar variant in Mind's Eye helps the good up to 6s. And it puts UMD/UPD on the list, which opens up a very short list of 7/8/9s but pick only 2. It then also allows Tap Mantle feat, which opens up the PsyWar list to be entirely made up of non-PsyWar powers, and also makes more 7/8/9s available.
All in all, a quirk-tastic way of being still not as good as a Psion/Slayer.
Still not as good as a recharge Psion/Slayer, but that trick bumps both up a slot.

PsyWar can get more Metamorphic Transfer feats going for (su) goodies.
Psiotheurgist feat ups the ML with a tricky build. Rock hard levels 8 to 13, but nerfs MT feat slots. Oh well.

[Ubernoob]

Just for the record, am I the only one that thinks that swordsages are significantly weaker than warblade and crusader?  Warblade and Crusader are high tier three, while swordsage is low tier three IMO.

[Tshern]

Just for the record, am I the only one that thinks that swordsages are significantly weaker than warblade and crusader?  Warblade and Crusader are high tier three, while swordsage is low tier three IMO.

No you are not. However, I don't consider any of them to be high tier three.

[Ubernoob]

Just for the record, am I the only one that thinks that swordsages are significantly weaker than warblade and crusader?  Warblade and Crusader are high tier three, while swordsage is low tier three IMO.

No you are not. However, I don't consider any of them to be high tier three.

*looks again*
How the fuck is the beguiler below the binder?

In any case, Psywar is above Swordsage.  You're right.  Binder and dread necro are high tier three.  Crusader, binder, and warblade are mid tier 3.  Swordsage, Psywar, and WS ranger are low tier 3.

Beguiler has *way* too many good spells on its list for teir 3.  Beguiler is low tier 2 with sorcerer.

[Sunic_Flames]

My guess is immune to mind affecting vs lots of versatility on a daily basis. Beguilers have set spell lists after all, and I don't think they've been expanded much. Have they?

Binder is whatever he wants to be within constraints in the morning, Beguiler's always the same.

[NineInchNall]

Yeah, he's always the same: Awesome.

[Midnight_v]

Yeah, he's always the same: Awesome.

+1

[Kuroimaken]

Any with Detect Magic and 5 ranks in Knowledge: Arcana I believe, who purchase a cheap item. And it takes 1 minute.

Yeah, I forgot every basher has Detect Magic. Silly me.

Honestly though, what are you referring to?

Just for the record, am I the only one that thinks that swordsages are significantly weaker than warblade and crusader?  Warblade and Crusader are high tier three, while swordsage is low tier three IMO.

I don't think you are. Then again, my point for the Swordsage is due to my personal experience with them (as I mentioned before, I never played a Warblade or a Crusader). I can definitely see how the Crusader and the Warblade can be abusable, but the Swordsage is still my favorite class out of the martial adepts. (Must be something about them being able to emulate ninjas better, or their bigger selection of known maneuvers... I dunno. I just like 'em better.)

That said, though, something tells me shouldn't be Tier 2 under any circunstances. 3 words: Null Psionics Field. Get a Psiwar in one, and he's toast (Arguably, this could be said of Wizards and AMF, or Bards and Silence, too... but I won't get into that.); but, more to the point, they don't get stuff like Planar Binding or Shapechange. Polymorph is great, granted, but it's not mind-numbingly broken.

[ninjarabbit]

Hexblades also get polymorph and they're a Tier 4

[Midnight_v]

Nenermind...

[DrowVampyre]

Honestly though, what are you referring to?

Artificer's Monocle (MIC, pg. 72). One of the first pieces of magical gear any adventuring party should buy.  

[JaronK]

How the fuck is the beguiler below the binder?

It is?  I thought I listed both as Tier 3.

Beguiler has *way* too many good spells on its list for teir 3.  Beguiler is low tier 2 with sorcerer.

Beguilers are strong in Tier 3, but they've got nothing to match the game breaking potency of a Sorcerer.  Remember, Tier 3 is really flexible and potent, but Tier 2s have the raw power of Tier 1s without the flexibility.  Beguilers don't cast Genesis or PAO or Shapechange or Alter Self or Explosive Runes (though they do get a few nice ones, like Glitterdust).

That said, Tier 2 is an odd one.  In my first write up of the Tier system, it was called Tier 1.5, because it has this odd situation of having the power of Tier 1s with less flexibility than some Tier 3s (which were called Tier 2s back then) making it really hard to rank that group.

JaronK

[Sunic_Flames]

I'm reviving this thread because TGD (particularly Frank) is evaluating it.

http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=48649&start=1150

Read the last 10-20 posts there.