Tier System for Classes

[JaronK]

Yeah, well, I'm leaving out the PrCs.  If a build includes PrCs, you'd have to judge what Tier those would be and average things a bit.

It's too hard to do a list for the PrCs though.  There's tons of them, and they have drastically different effects depending on what class you use with them.

JaronK

[Kuroimaken]

Kuroimaken:   So, I'm guessing that's sort of standard behavior for those element types.  What would you say is the powered up version?  As in, if you were optimizing that class to be really strong, what would you do, and how would it look, especially compared to an equally optimized similar class?

Also, how would you rate the Fire Shugenja compared to a Warmage, and the Air Shugenja to a Beguiler?  Not really sure if there's easy direct comparisons to other classes though.

JaronK

Well, I'm afraid things are not quite that simple. Basically, Shugenja get quite a few spells from both the Wiz/Sorc list as well as the Cleric list, and even a couple off the Druid's. Their favored element only defines their "main" function, so to speak, and bars some options to him, but the class itself is quite customizable. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find an order with too many useless spells on their lists, and last I checked pretty much every order's list has at least one spell you can't get from being just a regular Shugenja (such as Fireball, albeit at a higher level).

That said, though, between a Fire Shugenja and a Warmage, I'd still put my chips on the former. NOTHING on the Warmage's class abilities outshine the Fire Shugenja's (compared) versatility. As someone once said, if you know THE best way to deliver damage, you don't need 16 other ways to do it. They don't have world-shattering potential, though, so no good for tier 2.

As for Air Shugenja versus Beguiler, they get 9th-level spells, which I believe should speak for itself, even though their choices of such spells may be a bit dull. Whereas the Air Shugenja is a wannabe Illusionist, the Beguiler feels like a pimped-out wannabe Air Shugenja to me. Also, unlike the Beguiler, the Air Shugenja STILL has some offensive options left.

Water Shugenja and Earth Shugenja are harder toss-ups, though, because they don't really have an equivalent class. If I had to hazard a guess, the Water Shugenja could be compared to the Healer (and he still kicks significantly more rear in that regard), but the Earth Shugenja really has no equivalent.

Unfortunately, the real problem with Shugenja is that they didn't really get anything added to their list after Complete Divine came out, and as such they're significantly more gimped than a Favored Soul (who actually chooses spells from the Cleric list). Their real strength comes from access to spells from a mixed list.

[Operation Shoestring]

Kuroimaken:   So, I'm guessing that's sort of standard behavior for those element types.  What would you say is the powered up version?  As in, if you were optimizing that class to be really strong, what would you do, and how would it look, especially compared to an equally optimized similar class?

Also, how would you rate the Fire Shugenja compared to a Warmage, and the Air Shugenja to a Beguiler?  Not really sure if there's easy direct comparisons to other classes though.

JaronK

Well, I'm afraid things are not quite that simple. Basically, Shugenja get quite a few spells from both the Wiz/Sorc list as well as the Cleric list, and even a couple off the Druid's. Their favored element only defines their "main" function, so to speak, and bars some options to him, but the class itself is quite customizable. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find an order with too many useless spells on their lists, and last I checked pretty much every order's list has at least one spell you can't get from being just a regular Shugenja (such as Fireball, albeit at a higher level).

That said, though, between a Fire Shugenja and a Warmage, I'd still put my chips on the former. NOTHING on the Warmage's class abilities outshine the Fire Shugenja's (compared) versatility. As someone once said, if you know THE best way to deliver damage, you don't need 16 other ways to do it. They don't have world-shattering potential, though, so no good for tier 2.

As for Air Shugenja versus Beguiler, they get 9th-level spells, which I believe should speak for itself, even though their choices of such spells may be a bit dull. Whereas the Air Shugenja is a wannabe Illusionist, the Beguiler feels like a pimped-out wannabe Air Shugenja to me. Also, unlike the Beguiler, the Air Shugenja STILL has some offensive options left.

Beguilers get access to Program Memory (or whatever that spell was called), which, depending on the campaign, may outweigh the Shugenja's advantages alone.  And they get the Shadow conj/evo spells.  They're versatile enough.  And isn't beguiler a possible entry class for Shadowcraft mage?

Water Shugenja and Earth Shugenja are harder toss-ups, though, because they don't really have an equivalent class. If I had to hazard a guess, the Water Shugenja could be compared to the Healer (and he still kicks significantly more rear in that regard), but the Earth Shugenja really has no equivalent.

Unfortunately, the real problem with Shugenja is that they didn't really get anything added to their list after Complete Divine came out, and as such they're significantly more gimped than a Favored Soul (who actually chooses spells from the Cleric list). Their real strength comes from access to spells from a mixed list.

That's why the Wu Jen is poorly regarded as well, They're neat, but their spell-list was never updated.  For that matter, neither was the beguiler's.

[Kuroimaken]

Beguilers get access to Program Memory (or whatever that spell was called), which, depending on the campaign, may outweigh the Shugenja's advantages alone.  And they get the Shadow conj/evo spells.  They're versatile enough.  And isn't beguiler a possible entry class for Shadowcraft mage?

They don't. I checked. Unless they got their spell list updated in another book.

That's why the Wu Jen is poorly regarded as well, They're neat, but their spell-list was never updated.  For that matter, neither was the beguiler's.

And Shugenja get 9th-level spells, which Beguilers don't.

[NineInchNall]

Beguilers get access to Program Memory (or whatever that spell was called), which, depending on the campaign, may outweigh the Shugenja's advantages alone.  And they get the Shadow conj/evo spells.  They're versatile enough.  And isn't beguiler a possible entry class for Shadowcraft mage?

They don't. I checked. Unless they got their spell list updated in another book.

Beguilers have dominate monster and use advanced learning to snag mindrape.  Beguilers have greater invisibility at its appropriate level.  Beguilers have mind fog.  Beguilers have glibness.

Beguilers win at mind control.

And Beguiler is a fantastic entry into Shadowcraft Mage, so there's always that.

That's why the Wu Jen is poorly regarded as well, They're neat, but their spell-list was never updated.  For that matter, neither was the beguiler's.

And Shugenja get 9th-level spells, which Beguilers don't.

False.

[awaken DM golem]

1)  To provide a ranking system so that DMs know roughly the power of the PCs in their group.

 :review ... thinks ...
You know, it occurs to me that even a total noob can Gestalt NPC classes, considering the rules are available in the SRD.
Throw in Forlorn flaw - the one that turns the Adept's Familiar into a feat - and Limited Set Optimizing is available.

Any Class worse than straight Gestalted NPC classes gets a zero (0).
Any Class worse than optimized Gestalted NPC Classes gets a one (1).
Any Class worse than an un-Gestalted NPC Class gets a negative one (-1).

The old TO-board had a thread on Adept Vs. Fighter. If the Fighter started out of range, it always lost. Ouch.

[JaronK]

And Shugenja get 9th-level spells, which Beguilers don't.

Um... what?  Yes they do.  Beguilers are full casters.

JaronK

[Tshern]

the old TO-board had a thread on Adept Vs. Fighter. If the Fighter started out of range, it always lost. Ouch.

I think you are overestimating a bit. Fighter held his own for, I recall, three or four first levels.

[SorO_Lost]

Online vestiges? Link please (its not in the web enhancements).

[Chemus]

There are a lot of links in the Consolidated Binder Handbook thread, by jameswilliamogle.

[Kuroimaken]

Are we talking about the same class here? The Beguiler I refer to is in PHB2.

[AfterCrescent]

Are we talking about the same class here? The Beguiler I refer to is in PHB2.

I hope so. Since the only other Beguiler is a race in the Shining South supplement.  But let's double check.

Player's Handbook II? Check
Page 7? Check
Table 1-1? Check
9th level spells? Check

[Kuroimaken]

Okay, that's just plain freaky. I can't find its spell list anywhere. There's only a reference to it in the "new spells" chapter.

Edit: Ah, found it. Though the location is quite bizarre.

[Kuroimaken]

I retract my previous statement. A Beguiler has a much better spell list than the Air Shugenja -- though the Air Shugenja still gets a few utilitarian spells that the Beguiler doesn't have in his regular list. I suppose I'd rank the Beguiler higher than the Air Shugenja if anything due to sheer number of spells known and because there are practically no Divine PrCs that would enable them to expand their repertoire (or at similar ranks with the air shugenja lagging a bit behind). Although, they serve quite different roles, so I'm still a bit torn.

Awww, if only for the lack of shadow spells on his class list, the Shugenja could be in for Shadowcraft Mage too (although the skill requirements make that awkward).

[JaronK]

Online vestiges? Link please (its not in the web enhancements).

Hopefully Chemus's link gave you all of them (I believe it does).  The big one that bumps the Binder up a Tier is the one that lets you cast Summon Monster every five rounds as though you were a Sorcerer of your Binder level (so a Binder 16 could cast Summon Monster 8 once every five rounds, and it would last 16 rounds).  You can get tons of effects out of that, and one feat brings it down to one every four rounds, so said 16th level Binder could have 4 such creatures up at once by continually casting at every chance.  It's seriously scary to watch.

Also there's the vestige that gives you any item creation feat you want at the beginning of the day... very handy with the Anima Mage PrC.

JaronK

[Sunic_Flames]

I'm not that familiar with the Binder. Is there a way to Extend that? 8 summons at once (or 8d3 or 8d4+8) = yes please.

[Prime32]

You forgot that everything you summon gains the pseudonatural template.

[Kuroimaken]

I'm not that familiar with the Binder. Is there a way to Extend that? 8 summons at once (or 8d3 or 8d4+8) = yes please.

Extend Supernatural Ability can do it 1/day. Can be taken multiple times but you can't extend the same supernatural ability more than once.

[awaken DM golem]

the old TO-board had a thread on Adept Vs. Fighter. If the Fighter started out of range, it always lost. Ouch.

I think you are overestimating a bit. Fighter held his own for, I recall, three or four first levels.

hmm ... http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-831774.html

Variously, the Adept can stick a save-or-suck on the Fighter.
Stretching things, an Adept can get a Scroll of Polymorph = ouch on Fighter.

But this is just 1 on 1.
In a party I'd rather have the Fighter.

Arisocrat / Adept gestalt with Mercantile feat, has enough dough to buy the Scroll of Polymorph, without cheesy discounts.

[Cyrocloud]

You forgot that everything you summon gains the pseudonatural template.

I remember before I got CArcane and only had the ELH and saw this, damn was I dissapointed when I found out the truth.