Tier System for Classes

[The Lurker]

I might like to point out that in the situation I described, the erudite you said is worse than sorcerer does better than the wizard.  A strategic scale world-changing competition places far more emphasis on spell access than spells per day.  (although too little will gimp you)

It's really the access to those crazy few spells that do everything. 

I must say though, teleport vs PAO is a very hard choice in a game. 

I totally agree that world changing effects are more determined by spell access on your off days than spell access for this combat.  You're 100% accurate to say that a sorcerer with a dorje of psychic reformation (because it's the most handy way to get access to different spells) is just about as good as a wizard at changing the world.

However, being able to change the campaign world does not actually make a class powerful.  Powerful is what spells it has to deal with level appropriate threats (level appropriate being as strong as you are and higher; you're allowed to overkill less powerful things, so weaker options don't really matter).

Does this make sense?  Sorcerers are totally better at changing the campaign world in the long run (in the short run, beguilers get a fat stack of utility spells and 6+int off a really sweet skill list).  However, being able to change the world doesn't actually make the sorcerer more personally powerful.

Does anyone agree with this?  That world changing and powerful are not the same thing?

[Braithwaite]

It's obvious Lurker has an opinion that he will not back down on, which most everyone else seems to disagree with. It's also obvious that he doesn't seem to have a clue what the Tier system is even FOR (or willfully ignores the purpose for his argument).

I've already swayed two people (Kaelik and Braithwaite).  There's a good chance I can sway more.

I'm pretty sure Ians was agreeing with us.

Its Lans, my fault for not capitalizing it. I kind of agree, as long as arcane disciples spells can be cast on a per domain basis,a possibly inaccurate example a beguiler with transmutation and summoning arcane disciples can cast polymorph from transmutation domain and lesser planar binding as a 4th level spells. The wording of the feat makes it slightly vague. I'm sure they do, but if not then I'm  a little bit more ambivalent, but can definitely see beguiler still move up a tier.

One thing that I find a little annoying is when factotums, and erudites get access to the sources that most power them up, and healers don't get access to BoVD or BoED because to paraphrase 'Most DMs don't allow them'. Seems a little bit like arbitrarily denying a source.

Sorry Lans. My bad.

[jseah]

However, being able to change the campaign world does not actually make a class powerful.  Powerful is what spells it has to deal with level appropriate threats (level appropriate being as strong as you are and higher; you're allowed to overkill less powerful things, so weaker options don't really matter).
<...>
Does anyone agree with this?  That world changing and powerful are not the same thing?

Eh?  I think if the class can easily change the world, then you could quite easily cause level appropriate threats to never turn up.  Or turn up in unfavourable circumstances. 
What else are you going to do with your power?

A perfect example is the wizard/sorcerer using Contact Other Plane for all it's worth.  Level appropriate threats are instantly disadvantaged by the fact that you've advance information on that day's encounters.  (which sure makes up for the loss of one or two 5th level spells/day)
Another low-level example is the (ab)use of Rope Trick to control the pacing of encounters. 

And this fits perfectly into defining how a class's powers/spells can derail a campaign.  World-changing spells and effects cause that character to bend the setting in their favour.  Strategic advantage... well, after GMing two such games, I can say I probably won't play D&D the same sword&sorcery way ever again.  >.>

On second thoughts, I might actually prefer Teleport over PAO.  Simply because mobility is such a powerful thing.  That one spell places the pacing of the campaign into the players' hands simply because they can return to town basically whenever. 
But then again, no high level offense is a bit... risky. 

[SorO_Lost]

About a third of those, yeah.  They're on the base list (or something so similar as to not even be funny is).  Several of those are "too much rules shenanigans to get" and some other ones are "Yeah, I'd totally pick up that with arcane disciple because I'm not retarded".

None of those are on the Beguiler's spell list.

Shadow
A 7th level Beguiler can blow a 4th level spell slot to cast Grease (a 1st level spell) or Kelgore's Grave Mist (a 2nd level spell). I for one don't see some advantage for the Beguiler there. I'd rather cast those spells four to seven levels earlier in the game using lower level spell slots. This also backs up the higher power element of tier 2 vs tier 3. Also there is nothing preventing a Sorcerer from using Shadow Conjuration like the Beguiler would, which of course means there is no advantage for the Beguiler. At. All.

Feat
Arcane Disciple carries a heavy cost. A Beguiler must worship exactly the right deity; must invest gold, point buy, or racial choices for wisdom, must not use anything save dependent from the list of bonus spells; and are directly limited to casting each of those once per day by the very feat granting access to them. Comparatively, a Sorcerer has almost every arcane spell on his spell list letting him cast them multiple times per day if he chooses to learn them. If not he can buy a Runestaff.

Take for example a Runestaff with all four Heart Of spells, at 2/day use the staff's cost comes out to 11,850gp which is a little over 4k cheaper than a +4 wisdom booster the Beguiler flat out needs. Because the Sorcerer does not have to really put anything into wisdom he'll sport more con and dex than a Beguiler. This makes the Sorcerer harder to hit, better AC, better saves, and an HP bonus difference that offsets the d6 the Beguiler gets. Also the value of a feat slot when you only have seven is quite a bit. I'd rather spend 50k in gold for a dozen must have mid level spells then to give up my feat slots to do the same thing.

I don't see Summon Monster at all on the Beguiler's spell list. The sorcerer can take it. Heck the sorcerer can buy a cheap little 15k runestaff and walk around with five or six Summon spells. Each spell is like adding a dozen spell's known to your spell list via the summon monster's SLAs. Also summoned help also has the benefit of focusing on different skills that you. How the heck is it harder to add spells known to a Sorcerer when you have up to .76mil in gold to throw around compared to losing 1~3 of up to 7 feats?

Finally as overkill, if a Sorcerer wanted to nothing is preventing them from taking Arcane Disciple as well. Just saying.

5. Is the Sorcerer a feat less class that prohibits PrCing out or optimization in anyway?

Well, in my side by side comparison I just kinda picked no brainer things for each build.  I spent more time on the sorcerer (optimizing spells known pretty hard).  And he has two open feats.  They wouldn't change the fact that a moderately optimized beguiler is on par with or better than a moderately optimized sorcerer, would they?

The Sorcerer has two open feats? What's that put the Beguiler at? -1 for having to take Arcane Disciple three times. -2 for Improved Feint?

Oh and small tip, Heart of Water lets the sorcerer net Freedom of Movement at an earlier level than the Beguiler, and gain it's effects as an immediate action. It's like the Runestaff of Heart just came around again and offered a way for the Sorcerer to overcome the massive disadvantage of not casting Animate Dead as a 3rd level spell.

***

1. Your main point is the Beguiler can spend several feat slots, gold, and lose out to MAD, to gain the a handful of spells. It's a trade of power for versatility. But your point completly overlooks the fact a Sorcerer, or any other arcane class for that matter can also take Arcane Disciple if they choose to.

2. Further more you comment a Sorcerer is feat tight and maybe he is by the time you add a few metamagic feats, but are more than willing to comment about a Beguiler can simply take Arcane Disciple multiple times. So while the Sorcerer is taking feats for raw power or even Summon Elemental for utility the Beguiler is still bent on expanding his spell list with more 1/day spells. It's more power for versatility tradeoffs, and again nothing prevents other arcane classes from doing the same.

3. After you have sold away all your power your left over with a dozen useful spells and a paltry feat list like Arcane Disciple, Improved Init, Nymph's Kiss, Sculpt Spell, Vow of Nonviolence, and Mindsight. Wait, that only has one Arcane Disciple listed and isn't even legal (VoN requires Sacred Vow, Mindsight is build specific). Try Arcane Disciple, Arcane Disciple, Arcane Disciple, Improved Init, Nymph's Kiss, and Sculpt Spell. Anyway, where was I? Congrats on successfully becoming tier 4 and good luck with those encounters.

***

A comic writer once said Players move at the speed of the plot. Take POA over Teleport, you'll always arrive on time no matter your method of travel.

[The Lurker]

However, being able to change the campaign world does not actually make a class powerful.  Powerful is what spells it has to deal with level appropriate threats (level appropriate being as strong as you are and higher; you're allowed to overkill less powerful things, so weaker options don't really matter).
<...>
Does anyone agree with this?  That world changing and powerful are not the same thing?

Eh?  I think if the class can easily change the world, then you could quite easily cause level appropriate threats to never turn up.  Or turn up in unfavourable circumstances. 
What else are you going to do with your power?

If you aren't fighting level appropriate threats, you're not playing D&D.  You're playing magic tea party (because the combat system is 90% of the rules for D&D not using it pretty much makes it so that it doesn't matter what gaming system you use).

A perfect example is the wizard/sorcerer using Contact Other Plane for all it's worth.  Level appropriate threats are instantly disadvantaged by the fact that you've advance information on that day's encounters.  (which sure makes up for the loss of one or two 5th level spells/day)
Another low-level example is the (ab)use of Rope Trick to control the pacing of encounters. 

I don't consider contact other plane world changing at all.  It gives you advanced warning.  It does absolutely nothing to change a setting (just helps you prepare well for encounters, so is a good idea for prep casters).

Rope trick, of course, is not world changing either.  It's just something that every party has so that they can rest whenever and wherever they feel like without any hassle.

And this fits perfectly into defining how a class's powers/spells can derail a campaign.  World-changing spells and effects cause that character to bend the setting in their favour.  Strategic advantage... well, after GMing two such games, I can say I probably won't play D&D the same sword&sorcery way ever again.  >.>

Examples of how world changing effects make encounters easier?  Casting polymorph any object on the party fighter doesn't change the world.  It changes the fighter.  Now, I'm not arguing that Powerful effects don't make combat easier (because they do in fact do exactly that), but simply the capacity to do world changing effects does not directly cause an increase in power.


So, if you could give me an example of world changing stuff that actually makes the sorcerer more directly powerful (while still actually playing D&D and not magic tea party or Snipers and Bombers or even robots and rapists), I'd greatly appreciate it.

[Gods_Trick]

So, if you could give me an example of world changing stuff that actually makes the sorcerer more directly powerful (while still actually playing D&D and not magic tea party or Snipers and Bombers or even robots and rapists), I'd greatly appreciate it.

  Powerful spells do exactly that, change the game. Tier two casters never have to play the same game everyone else is. And thats power.

[JaronK]

It should be noted, SorO, that Arcane Disciple is far less useful to the Sorcerer as it puts the spells on your spell list but doesn't (IIRC) make them spells known, so a Beguiler gets them all anyway (since Beguilers know their whole list automatically), but Sorcerers don't.  That's why Sorcerers who want more spells don't use Arcane Disciple.  They use Mage of the Arcane Order, which is far superior.  That's the Sorcerer equivalent of Arcane Disciple (costs for it are less too... you need one Metamagic feat and Cooperative Spell, but you get a metamagic feat during the class to make up for the mostly useless Cooperative Spell, and you probably wanted the other metamagic feat anyway.  You of course do lose the ability to go into other PrCs during those 10 levels).

Anyway, just saying.

One thing I'm seeing here with the whole "world changing" thing is something I haven't mentioned but which was implied in the Tier system... it's more powerful to be proactive then reactive.  Being reactive means you go from dungeon to dungeon or encounter to encounter waiting to see what turns up, and then you use your abilities to deal with what you see.  The Beguiler (and most things from Tier 3 and down) is primarily reactive, as he's got a ton of spells (like Glitterdust or Knock) that are great at dealing with a threat or situation.  The Sorcerer, when played in a powerful way, is proactive.  You can do things like "We're going to spend a day of downtime crafting magic items, and I'm also going to build a mini-castle with Wall of Stone, Magecraft, and Fabricate, and fill it with friendly undead for protective purposes with Animate Dead (using a Runestaff of the Undying for the latter).  And I'll also fortify my new tower with Ghoul Glyphs and Explosive Runes."  Or, if we're doing the high powered version, one might do something like Haunt Shift/Augment Object/Hardness to turn oneself into a nearly invincible golem (or do the same thing to the party's tanky types, which is a good idea too).

Creating magic items, permanently spell augmenting the party, building permanent fortifications, divining to know what's coming, using teleportation to bring your party to a place where they can actually purchase magic items; all of these things are proactive.  You do them before even seeing the enemy (and before the enemy sees you).  No battle plan survives contact with the enemy, but a proactive class can engage their battle plan before the enemy ever shows up or even knows they exist.  Now, the Wizard does this a lot better than the Sorcerer (though Mage of the Arcane Order does change that a great deal).  But the Sorcerer can do it very effectively, and the Beguiler can only do it in very small degrees unless very heavily optimized (which would, of course, bring it up a tier or two... Binder 1/Beguiler 4/Anima Mage 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5 is obviously incredibly strong, but that's more the PrCs involved).

Now, Lurker/Uber ignores this, as you can see from his comment about how combat is 90% of the rules for D&D.  He's assuming that you walk into a fight and now you deal with the fight, and how you deal with a fight being thrust at you is all there is to D&D (or 90%).  But in the words of Sun Tzu (and I won't get this exactly right) "The victorious warrior wins first, and then goes to war.  The defeated warrior goes to war first, and then seeks to win."  Proactive classes win first, then go to war.  The Beguiler (and most T3 and below classes) will, most of the time, go to war first and then seek to win.  Of course, they're strong enough to make that work, so they probably will win... but the playstyle you can have with the more proactive classes is inhearently stronger, and Lurker/Uber is pretending that playstyle doesn't even (and in fact cannot) exist.

Now, I'm sure Lurker/Ubernoob would say that using things like Contact Other Plane to know what's coming up counts as "Magical Tea Party" and is thus too powerful for his games so it doesn't count as "real D&D" since real D&D is going to battle first and then seeking to win.  That's pretty standard from him.  But everyone else can see that the argument "Sorcerer abilities are so powerful that I'd never allow them to use their abilities, therefor they're weaker than a class I'd let run free" isn't a very good argument.  Well, everyone except Kaelik who came in here trying to prove the same thing.  Me, however, I've seen games where it's allowed (currently playing in one that involves a Venerable Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Loredrake Sorcerer, in fact), so I know that it does happen, and when it does the Sorcerer can absolutely cut lose in incredible ways.  And by the way, there's a Venerable Dragonwrought Beguiler in that group as well, before anyone tries to claim I'm comparing optimized Sorcerers to unoptimized Beguilers.  I've of course also seen the less optimized versions of both as well in other games.

JaronK

[The Lurker]

About a third of those, yeah.  They're on the base list (or something so similar as to not even be funny is).  Several of those are "too much rules shenanigans to get" and some other ones are "Yeah, I'd totally pick up that with arcane disciple because I'm not retarded".

None of those are on the Beguiler's spell list.

Beguiler world changing spells:
Charm person, detect thoughts, clairaudience/clairvoyance, glibness, charm monster, locate creature, etherealness, dominate monster
Beguiler top tier for that spell level spells:
Color Spray, Grease, Slow, Charm Monster, Greater Mirror Image, Solid Fog (EBT that works against big creatures), greater dispel magic, hold monster, Spell Turning, Time stop

Via advanced learning: Ray of stupidity is all kinds of fun off the top of my head.  I can hunt around for a second spell to care about if you really want to.

Via Arcane Disciple on my example level ten beguiler made in under five minutes just to show how easy it is to pick up some more spells: Locate Object, Fly, Animate Dead, Death Ward, D. Door, Slay Living, Teleport


It's not whether the spell can be gotten by the beguiler or not.  It's if the sorcerer's single spell known is better than everything the beguiler knows at that level combined.  Really, look at the side by side comparison of what solid optimizers might bring to games (poor optimizers of course favors the beguiler)
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.msg175241#msg175241

Shadow
A 7th level Beguiler can blow a 4th level spell slot to cast Grease (a 1st level spell) or Kelgore's Grave Mist (a 2nd level spell). I for one don't see some advantage for the Beguiler there. I'd rather cast those spells four to seven levels earlier in the game using lower level spell slots. This also backs up the higher power element of tier 2 vs tier 3. Also there is nothing preventing a Sorcerer from using Shadow Conjuration like the Beguiler would, which of course means there is no advantage for the Beguiler. At. All.

Feat
Arcane Disciple carries a heavy cost. A Beguiler must worship exactly the right deity; must invest gold, point buy, or racial choices for wisdom, must not use anything save dependent from the list of bonus spells; and are directly limited to casting each of those once per day by the very feat granting access to them. Comparatively, a Sorcerer has almost every arcane spell on his spell list letting him cast them multiple times per day if he chooses to learn them. If not he can buy a Runestaff.

We don't worry about clerics worshipping the exact right deity here, so applying that kind of "but you have to cite a deity!" stuff is just silly for this discussion.  If I really want to, I can probably find one in the many dozens of deities they've printed for FR.  Cuz there are a seriously large number of deities printed.  FR splats are just the most organized about them.
If you'll look at my comparison, I took runestaffs into account:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.msg175241#msg175241

Take for example a Runestaff with all four Heart Of spells, at 2/day use the staff's cost comes out to 11,850gp which is a little over 4k cheaper than a +4 wisdom booster the Beguiler flat out needs. Because the Sorcerer does not have to really put anything into wisdom he'll sport more con and dex than a Beguiler. This makes the Sorcerer harder to hit, better AC, better saves, and an HP bonus difference that offsets the d6 the Beguiler gets. Also the value of a feat slot when you only have seven is quite a bit. I'd rather spend 50k in gold for a dozen must have mid level spells then to give up my feat slots to do the same thing.

If you'll look at my comparison, you'll see I addressed this:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.msg175241#msg175241

I don't see Summon Monster at all on the Beguiler's spell list. The sorcerer can take it. Heck the sorcerer can buy a cheap little 15k runestaff and walk around with five or six Summon spells. Each spell is like adding a dozen spell's known to your spell list via the summon monster's SLAs. Also summoned help also has the benefit of focusing on different skills that you. How the heck is it harder to add spells known to a Sorcerer when you have up to .76mil in gold to throw around compared to losing 1~3 of up to 7 feats?

Summon monster is a crappy spell and we both know that.  Planar binding gets us what we want a lot better.

But try and tell me that a sorcerer is going to pick up a planar binding when it's his top level spell.  He's going to sacrifice his only top level effect for something he can't use in combat?  Heck, even if he waits one level the beguiler got it earlier.   Alternatively, the sorcerer is smart and just buys it on a runestaff of it.

Here's what's really funny.  Y'now how runestaffs are restricted to sorcerers?  Well, they aren't.  They explicitly work for any arcane spellcaster.  In the examples they describe wizards and hexblades using them.  All they have to do is be on your class list.

Emulate a Class Feature
Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

Since every beguiler ever has UMD pumped pretty decently, they can totally use runestaffs for spells that aren't on their list.

Really, beguilers can use runestaffs too.  And since they have more skill points, it's easier for them to cheat around spell lists too.

Finally as overkill, if a Sorcerer wanted to nothing is preventing them from taking Arcane Disciple as well. Just saying.

Except that arcane disciple replaces spells rather than adding them on a sorcerer.  I've never said that a sorcerer doesn't have amazing spells.  I've just said that the sum of a beguiler's spells is about as powerful in use as the sum of the sorcerers's spells.  This would imply that I think that sorcerers get more individually useful spells, but that the beguiler has enough of everything that it adds up in actual play versatility to be about on par with a sorcerer.

5. Is the Sorcerer a feat less class that prohibits PrCing out or optimization in anyway?

Well, in my side by side comparison I just kinda picked no brainer things for each build.  I spent more time on the sorcerer (optimizing spells known pretty hard).  And he has two open feats.  They wouldn't change the fact that a moderately optimized beguiler is on par with or better than a moderately optimized sorcerer, would they?

The Sorcerer has two open feats? What's that put the Beguiler at? -1 for having to take Arcane Disciple three times. -2 for Improved Feint?

Take a look.  I gave the sorcerer heighten spell and rapid metamagic as feats.  Those are generally kinda meh, but I couldn't think of anything else quickly (again, mildly optimized so a skilled optimizer actually looking through books for feats would be overkill IMO).

Oh and small tip, Heart of Water lets the sorcerer net Freedom of Movement at an earlier level than the Beguiler, and gain it's effects as an immediate action. It's like the Runestaff of Heart just came around again and offered a way for the Sorcerer to overcome the massive disadvantage of not casting Animate Dead as a 3rd level spell.

Heart of water is a *very* sexy spell.  It's something every caster that can get it (beguilers can use runestaffs too if you'll look above) should use.

1. Your main point is the Beguiler can spend several feat slots, gold, and lose out to MAD, to gain the a handful of spells. It's a trade of power for versatility. But your point completly overlooks the fact a Sorcerer, or any other arcane class for that matter can also take Arcane Disciple if they choose to.

As I've stated several times before, arcane disciple on a sorcerer is a shitty build decision because you lose spells known for those spells.  Effectively, it forces you to take the domain's spell (which you can still only cast once per day) in place of a sorc/wiz spell you'd otherwise have.  This is nice and all if it's a really sweet spell not on your list, but the vast majority of the time is worse than not taking the feat.

2. Further more you comment a Sorcerer is feat tight and maybe he is by the time you add a few metamagic feats, but are more than willing to comment about a Beguiler can simply take Arcane Disciple multiple times. So while the Sorcerer is taking feats for raw power or even Summon Elemental for utility the Beguiler is still bent on expanding his spell list with more 1/day spells. It's more power for versatility tradeoffs, and again nothing prevents other arcane classes from doing the same.

There are more sexy feats for sorcerers than beguiler.  There totally are.  I just couldn't think of two for my side by side example:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.msg175241#msg175241

Would improving those two feats really change the fact that the beguiler is about on par with a sorcerer?

3. After you have sold away all your power your left over with a dozen useful spells and a paltry feat list like Arcane Disciple, Improved Init, Nymph's Kiss, Sculpt Spell, Vow of Nonviolence, and Mindsight. Wait, that only has one Arcane Disciple listed and isn't even legal (VoN requires Sacred Vow, Mindsight is build specific). Try Arcane Disciple, Arcane Disciple, Arcane Disciple, Improved Init, Nymph's Kiss, and Sculpt Spell. Anyway, where was I? Congrats on successfully becoming tier 4 and good luck with those encounters.

Again, if you'll glance at my side by side comparison:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.msg175241#msg175241

A comic writer once said Players move at the speed of the plot. Take POA over Teleport, you'll always arrive on time no matter your method of travel.

Teleport is handy for escaping Bad Shit(TM) and just generally handy.  In any case, PAO is an eighth level spell while teleport is a fifth, so there's no real competition between the two.

[The Lurker]

So, if you could give me an example of world changing stuff that actually makes the sorcerer more directly powerful (while still actually playing D&D and not magic tea party or Snipers and Bombers or even robots and rapists), I'd greatly appreciate it.

  Powerful spells do exactly that, change the game. Tier two casters never have to play the same game everyone else is. And thats power.

I said world changing, not game changing.  I generally put spells that are game changing under the subset "Powerful" (like time stop).

[The Lurker]

It should be noted, SorO, that Arcane Disciple is far less useful to the Sorcerer as it puts the spells on your spell list but doesn't (IIRC) make them spells known, so a Beguiler gets them all anyway (since Beguilers know their whole list automatically), but Sorcerers don't.  That's why Sorcerers who want more spells don't use Arcane Disciple.  They use Mage of the Arcane Order, which is far superior.  That's the Sorcerer equivalent of Arcane Disciple (costs for it are less too... you need one Metamagic feat and Cooperative Spell, but you get a metamagic feat during the class to make up for the mostly useless Cooperative Spell, and you probably wanted the other metamagic feat anyway.  You of course do lose the ability to go into other PrCs during those 10 levels).

I think you're overrating MotAO, but anyways I do agree that sorcerers can do more game changing stuff in down time (especially if you  have dorjes of psychic reformation around, which is better than MotAO IMO).

Anyway, just saying.

One thing I'm seeing here with the whole "world changing" thing is something I haven't mentioned but which was implied in the Tier system... it's more powerful to be proactive then reactive.  Being reactive means you go from dungeon to dungeon or encounter to encounter waiting to see what turns up, and then you use your abilities to deal with what you see.  The Beguiler (and most things from Tier 3 and down) is primarily reactive, as he's got a ton of spells (like Glitterdust or Knock) that are great at dealing with a threat or situation.  The Sorcerer, when played in a powerful way, is proactive.  You can do things like "We're going to spend a day of downtime crafting magic items, and I'm also going to build a mini-castle with Wall of Stone, Magecraft, and Fabricate, and fill it with friendly undead for protective purposes with Animate Dead (using a Runestaff of the Undying for the latter).  And I'll also fortify my new tower with Ghoul Glyphs and Explosive Runes."  Or, if we're doing the high powered version, one might do something like Haunt Shift/Augment Object/Hardness to turn oneself into a nearly invincible golem (or do the same thing to the party's tanky types, which is a good idea too).

This is a sandbox vs printed campaign issue.  If you try to use haunt shift or explosive runes in red hand of doom (or any campaign with a time limit really), you're going to fail at your objective.  OTOH, if you're playing a DBZ game where people just go off to train for a year, then it's totally viable.

Of course, the game falls apart real quick, but it's great for playing DBZ (Combining spells to add permanent effects to yourself) or Adders and Accountants (Creating permanent effects to your mobile fortress which you fight with instead of using your PC).

Creating magic items, permanently spell augmenting the party, building permanent fortifications, divining to know what's coming, using teleportation to bring your party to a place where they can actually purchase magic items; all of these things are proactive.  You do them before even seeing the enemy (and before the enemy sees you).  No battle plan survives contact with the enemy, but a proactive class can engage their battle plan before the enemy ever shows up or even knows they exist.  Now, the Wizard does this a lot better than the Sorcerer (though Mage of the Arcane Order does change that a great deal).  But the Sorcerer can do it very effectively, and the Beguiler can only do it in very small degrees unless very heavily optimized (which would, of course, bring it up a tier or two... Binder 1/Beguiler 4/Anima Mage 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5 is obviously incredibly strong, but that's more the PrCs involved).

We're arguing versatility *right now* versus versatility *tomorrow*.  And I'm arguing that versatility *right now* creates more power in more D&D games (the vast majority of D&D players don't have anywhere near our rules knowledge, so can't even do the stuff you're citing) more often (4 encounters a day).

Now, Lurker/Uber ignores this, as you can see from his comment about how combat is 90% of the rules for D&D.  He's assuming that you walk into a fight and now you deal with the fight, and how you deal with a fight being thrust at you is all there is to D&D (or 90%).  But in the words of Sun Tzu (and I won't get this exactly right) "The victorious warrior wins first, and then goes to war.  The defeated warrior goes to war first, and then seeks to win."  Proactive classes win first, then go to war.  The Beguiler (and most T3 and below classes) will, most of the time, go to war first and then seek to win.  Of course, they're strong enough to make that work, so they probably will win... but the playstyle you can have with the more proactive classes is inhearently stronger, and Lurker/Uber is pretending that playstyle doesn't even (and in fact cannot) exist.

See above about D&D as opposed to DBZ or Adders and Accountants.  The vast majority of games I've even heard of follow something like this:
DM: "Hey guys, wanna chill around and play some D&D?"
Players: "Sure, let's roll up some characters.  Are you creating an adventure on the fly, or running a printed one?"
DM: "Well, I could do a dungeon crawl or I could run Red Hand of Doom.  Any plot besides a dungeon crawl would take more time to homebrew on the fly."
Players: "Red hand of doom is hardcore.  Let's do that."

Now, I'm sure Lurker/Ubernoob would say that using things like Contact Other Plane to know what's coming up counts as "Magical Tea Party" and is thus too powerful for his games so it doesn't count as "real D&D" since real D&D is going to battle first and then seeking to win.  That's pretty standard from him.  But everyone else can see that the argument "Sorcerer abilities are so powerful that I'd never allow them to use their abilities, therefor they're weaker than a class I'd let run free" isn't a very good argument.  Well, everyone except Kaelik who came in here trying to prove the same thing.  Me, however, I've seen games where it's allowed (currently playing in one that involves a Venerable Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Loredrake Sorcerer, in fact), so I know that it does happen, and when it does the Sorcerer can absolutely cut lose in incredible ways.  And by the way, there's a Venerable Dragonwrought Beguiler in that group as well, before anyone tries to claim I'm comparing optimized Sorcerers to unoptimized Beguilers.  I've of course also seen the less optimized versions of both as well in other games.

JaronK

Actually, Contact other Plane is pretty legit.  It just doesn't help sorcerers much.  I've been arguing more against exploits than anything.  I put polymorph and wings of flurry in the example sorcerer spell progression here:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.msg175241#msg175241

And please, don't straw man any more.  It ruins discussion ("Sorcerer abilities are so powerful that I'd never allow them to use their abilities, therefor they're weaker than a class I'd let run free") and makes you look like a tool.

And if you could, would you address the side by side comparison?  I felt it was a pretty good example.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.msg175241#msg175241

[Kaelik]

A quick note on "downtime crap" and "changing the world" and "I drop Explosive page and cast dispel magic, and am therefore Tier 1!"

Druids.

Seriously, that should be all I need to say to show how wrong you are.

Druids do not get to drop bombs, or build up armies, or play teleport ambush. But they are Tier 1. Why are thy Tier 1? Because they have combat spells that let them beat armies. Because they are a Party all to themselves, The cast Wizards spells that fuck with people, they have 3 tanks, they are skill monkeys, and they buff.

They don't win campaign arcs with cheese, they don't even get any cheese. They just win encounters. They win encounter after encounter after encounter. And that makes them Tier 1. You don't have to actually break the game to be Tier 1. You just have to be Better Than You (TM).

And that trademark is held by Druid and Druid incorporated.

[JaronK]

Actually, Druids get all kinds of downtime nonsense, from creating little Boguns at low level to Shapechanging into Black Ethergaunts at high levels and everything in between.  And claiming the Druid gets no cheese is absolutely silly.  Since when have Venomfired Fleshrakers been considered not cheesy?  Heck, I've seen Ubernoob/Lurker claim that casting Alter Self at level 5 once per day counts as theoretical optimization... if so, what's Wild Shape?

And yes, power tomorrow is an investment, and a potent one at that.  You can be adventuring through WLD (which I'm doing right now with that overpowered Kobold Sorcerer and Beguiler) and still be storing up Explosive Runes and reanimating fallen enemies for tomorrow (though in our game we're a stick up the *** righteously good party, so no undead for us).  The ability to spend a temporary renewing resource (like spell slots) on a permanent beneficial effect (like minions or permanent buffing effects) is extremely powerful in the long run, even if each individual beneficial effect isn't hugely powerful (and thus, unlikely to get nerfed).  I mean heck, just having a few sacrificial minions to trigger some traps would be awesomely useful (our plan if our current party dies is to go again with team convict, a skillmonkey group, and then team evil, which will make good use of undead minions).

Versitility right now is very good, and fits well in most games.  But the ability to create power and versitility in the future eventually leads to far greater power and versitility right now.

Furthermore, remember that the Tier system is designed to let people play in balanced campaigns and decide on house rules that will further better balance (or decide not to use house rules that destroy balance).  If done right, the Tiers should be such that if you're a weaker member of the party but playing a better Tier class, all you have to do is switch your playstyle (and maybe optimization choices a bit) and you'll be strong enough to compete again, and the DM doesn't have to house rule things in your favor to make that work.  A sorcerer shifting from reactive to proactive play will cause that to happen almost immediately, assuming he's chosen a few good spells.

As for the Favored Soul, which also got mentioned, they too are fully capable of proactive play.

JaronK

[The Lurker]

Actually, Druids get all kinds of downtime nonsense, from creating little Boguns at low level to Shapechanging into Black Ethergaunts at high levels and everything in between.  And claiming the Druid gets no cheese is absolutely silly.  Since when have Venomfired Fleshrakers been considered not cheesy?  Heck, I've seen Ubernoob/Lurker claim that casting Alter Self at level 5 once per day counts as theoretical optimization... if so, what's Wild Shape?

Straw Man.

And yes, power tomorrow is an investment, and a potent one at that.  You can be adventuring through WLD (which I'm doing right now with that overpowered Kobold Sorcerer and Beguiler) and still be storing up Explosive Runes and reanimating fallen enemies for tomorrow (though in our game we're a stick up the *** righteously good party, so no undead for us).  The ability to spend a temporary renewing resource (like spell slots) on a permanent beneficial effect (like minions or permanent buffing effects) is extremely powerful in the long run, even if each individual beneficial effect isn't hugely powerful (and thus, unlikely to get nerfed).  I mean heck, just having a few sacrificial minions to trigger some traps would be awesomely useful (our plan if our current party dies is to go again with team convict, a skillmonkey group, and then team evil, which will make good use of undead minions).

Again, I've never said that sorcerer is not better at playing DBZ.

Versitility right now is very good, and fits well in most games.  But the ability to create power and versitility in the future eventually leads to far greater power and versitility right now.

If something comes up the majority of the time (most), it should be the assumed case for a general resource.  Anything else is stupid.

Furthermore, remember that the Tier system is designed to let people play in balanced campaigns and decide on house rules that will further better balance (or decide not to use house rules that destroy balance).  If done right, the Tiers should be such that if you're a weaker member of the party but playing a better Tier class, all you have to do is switch your playstyle (and maybe optimization choices a bit) and you'll be strong enough to compete again, and the DM doesn't have to house rule things in your favor to make that work.  A sorcerer shifting from reactive to proactive play will cause that to happen almost immediately, assuming he's chosen a few good spells.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.msg175241#msg175241
I've addressed this.

As for the Favored Soul, which also got mentioned, they too are fully capable of proactive play.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.msg175241#msg175241
You still haven't addressed this.

[SorO_Lost]

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.msg175241#msg175241

Geez, I don't think I've even seen such a rigged example even Fighter vs Wizard thread.

First off the Sorcerer needs like 30 int to get into Mindbender and Fatespinner sucks. You deliberately choose a build meant for Beguiler and demanded the Sorcerer adheres to those terms. Not even FvW threads go as far as demanding a Wizard takes levels in Planar Champion for comparison. Your choice in runestaffs amounts to taking Skill Focus(speak language). Finally you talk about limiting your self to core, completes, and the spell compedium as if there is an advantage in that for the Beguiler. The Beguiler don't even exist in those books, talk about failure. Spell wise, who really takes Slow or Benign Transposition? Your Sorcerer example's feats match the Beguiler save for a less than useful Heighten Spell application meant to be applied on the fly, for no reason. Just like you did with the class build.

Ripping a page out of your book of biaism the Sorcerer goes Incantatrix instead of fatespinner and tries to be a legal build.
Lesser Aassimer Draconic Sorcerer 6 / Incantatrix 4.
Feats: Draconic Heritage^B, Iron Will, Extend Spell, Dragonic Aura, Persist Spell^B, Snowcasting, Invisible Spell^B.
Extend/Persist can be done without Incantratix using Residual Magic and Cantrips but I just like the idea of adding save boosters to my example as a kick in the face to the fatespinner so I wanted the bonus feat slots and to do without Residual Magic. The feat selection sets up Spellsurge for double casting per round (and shapechange for 4 per round even later on) and the DC boosters mean it's better at save of suck/dies than the Beguiler build dependent on mind affecting abilities without the crummy once per day stuff. Later on the sorcerer will retrain out his Bluff ranks for Intimidate and pick up Imperious Command to complete his lock down.

Spells
1st - Any, Enlarge Person, Grease, Nerveskitter, Lesser Orb of Acid.
2nd - Any, Alter Self, Kelgore's Grave Mist, Wings of Cover.
3rd - Greater Shivering Touch, Haste, Summon Monster III.
4th - Burning Blood, Greater Mirror Image.
5th - Feeblemind.
Runestaff: Animate Dead, GMW, Heart of Water, and Polymorph which costs 9,150gp and is taken out of the weapon budget. Though the whole party saves on weapon costs the Sorcerer declined free items in return, he was like "It's cool man. Just doing my part and all".

GMW is persisted and extended so the entire party has +2 weapons for free. When the Sorcerer can he also persists Greater Mirror Image and Heart of Water the day before with his remaining spell slots and Persisting Polymorph is an option as well. Animate Dead comes in when ever. Nerveskitter means the Sorcerer is operating with a +2 bonus to initiative higher than the Beguiler without having to invest in the Improved Initiative feat. SMIII expands his versatility in dozens of ways entirely replacing several spells the Beguiler has. Snowcast Burning Blood is one of his favorite spells and it has a +3 bonus to it's save DC. Snowcast Feeblemind lets him mop the floor when it comes to fighting anything with arcane spells, +3 DC from the aura and the -4 penalty on saves is harsh and later on with armor and intimidate he'll have a full 13 point difference in a standard will vs 5th level spell, so while he has less save or dies than the Beguiler, he is far more effective in this example. Finally, after Polymorphing into a decent melee monster with regeneration he has the option to smack the dex out of people. The only down side to this spell choice cannot target when it comes to weaknesses is HP, but all well. You can't pick all the forms of attack until later on right?

The Beguiler on the other hand, has a lot of redundant spells no one cares about. You don't need 24+ save or suck vs will spells when one will do. Or every version of Scry created under the sun. You won't use Mirror Image if you have Greater Mirror Image or Undetectable Alignment when you have Nondetection or minor movement boosters like Spider Climb and Expeditious Retreat when your fly speed is better. Anything with a will save will just laugh at the Beguiler because it had to take a feat just to have a 1/day killer based on a different save.

[DerWille]

SorO, last time I checked snowcasting requires one of the material components to be snow. Unless you're somewhere below freezing, how do you plan on having that? Any warmer climate would melt it. Last time I saw it, that combo needed Eschew Materials as well. Or is there someway around this?

EDIT: Grammar

[JaronK]

Straw Man.

Quoting isn't a strawman.  You said straight up that a Factotum using Alter Self at 5th level is Theoretical Optimization.  It's nearly a freaking quote from your Tier thread.  I believe I said "Factotums can cast Alter Self" and you replied "CO != TO."

Again, I've never said that sorcerer is not better at playing DBZ.

DBZ has nothing to do with anything.  It seems that "DBZ" to you means "preparing for combat, then winning combat through superior preparation."  So yes, Sorcerers are better at that, thus meaning they're a more powerful class.  You act as though downtime here means 6 months of off time.  I'm talking about a day of downtime, for example while traveling from location to location or spending one day in town, or ocassionally just a few minutes of downtime before you go to sleep after a day of adventuring.  Spell slots are a daily thing, not monthly.

@DerWille:  Blue Ice.  It's a material that never melts, but is ice cold all the time.  Just make a small cooler and keep some snow in it.  Then throw it on the back of a donkey or in your Handy Haversack or whereever you keep gear.  Also, Sorcerers can get plenty of spells that freeze stuff.

With that said, what's all this about persisting Greater Magic Weapon?  That doesn't work. 

Me, I'd do a generic Sorcerer build that was something like Sorcerer 4/Mage of the Arcane Order 10 (I keep using that PrC, but it's a basic completes PrC that's pretty much never called out as overpowered, so it's good for talking about average characters) with Eschew Materials, Cooperative Spell, Create Wonderous Item, Create Staff, and whatever other fun feats you want (I like Arcane Thesis Wings of Flurry because throwing lots of dice in damage can be fun, and a few metamagics that go well with that).  Then take some nice combat spells (Glitterdust, Cloudkill, Wings of Flurry, Wings of Cover) and some nice utility spells that you want to use a lot (Alter Self, Explosive Runes, Shrink Item) and use Mage of the Arcane Order to cover your other spell needs.  Prepare for combat with spells like Extended Greater Floating Disk and all that, and summon minion allies via Planar Binding/Animate Dead and such to do the tanking for you.  If you prepare correctly, you shouldn't really have to cast in combat much, if at all.  Heck, a Necrosis Carnex should be able to heal your undead minions just fine while you float above the battle on your Greater Floating Disk inside a metal box of some kind (for protection).  That should keep you safe while your minions do most of the work, and you can throw down Kelgor's Grave Mist and Cloudkill to tip the battle in your favor when you need.

JaronK

[DerWille]

Alright thanks. I didn't know about the blue ice component. I thought about using that trick but didn't want to waste a feat on Eschew Materials.

[The Lurker]

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.msg175241#msg175241

Geez, I don't think I've even seen such a rigged example even Fighter vs Wizard thread.

First off the Sorcerer needs like 30 int to get into Mindbender and Fatespinner sucks. You deliberately choose a build meant for Beguiler and demanded the Sorcerer adheres to those terms. Not even FvW threads go as far as demanding a Wizard takes levels in Planar Champion for comparison. Your choice in runestaffs amounts to taking Skill Focus(speak language). Finally you talk about limiting your self to core, completes, and the spell compedium as if there is an advantage in that for the Beguiler. The Beguiler don't even exist in those books, talk about failure. Spell wise, who really takes Slow or Benign Transposition? Your Sorcerer example's feats match the Beguiler save for a less than useful Heighten Spell application meant to be applied on the fly, for no reason. Just like you did with the class build.

Actually, I picked those prestige classes because I frequently do put them on wizards and sorcerers.  I hadn't ever brought skill points into the equation and simply assumed the sorcerer had enough.

If anything, I was being generous.

@Runestaffs: Again, I'm picking middle of the road stuff that anybody could do (so as to keep it in line with what actually sees play in a lot of games).  That happened to be the most useful printed runestaff affordable at that level.  Yes, the sorcerer can get a custom runestaff.  I don't care because that's top end power which I was explicitly not comparing.

@Spells-I frequently take benign transposition because it's a good spell!  Seriously, if you can use a first level spell to make a meaningful contribution in combat instead of a top level spell, that's a good thing (benign transposition is used to give first round full attacks to non-pouncers; you move, cast defensively).  Slow is action denial.  It's fucking good.  Look two posts up and you'll see that it is pretty darn smart to take slow.

@Feats: I've noted at least three times now that the sorcerer could have two better feats because I was doing a middle of the road comparison.  If you'd like to suggest two different feats, I'd love your suggestion.  But really, those two feats won't make a huge impact on the comparison.

Ripping a page out of your book of biaism the Sorcerer goes Incantatrix instead of fatespinner and tries to be a legal build.
Lesser Aassimer Draconic Sorcerer 6 / Incantatrix 4.

Dude, fatespinner is a class that fvcking kills people.  Let me explain to you how it works:
Free action: Use Spin Fate to up the DC of your baleful polymorph by your fatespinner level (4 if my example had been legal).
Standard: Cast the spell
If they save, spend an immediate action to make them save again.

Seriously, they have to save twice against your normal DC +4 or fvcking die.  That's fucking awesome.

Feats: Draconic Heritage^B, Iron Will, Extend Spell, Dragonic Aura, Persist Spell^B, Snowcasting, Invisible Spell^B.
Extend/Persist can be done without Incantratix using Residual Magic and Cantrips but I just like the idea of adding save boosters to my example as a kick in the face to the fatespinner so I wanted the bonus feat slots and to do without Residual Magic. The feat selection sets up Spellsurge for double casting per round (and shapechange for 4 per round even later on) and the DC boosters mean it's better at save of suck/dies than the Beguiler build dependent on mind affecting abilities without the crummy once per day stuff. Later on the sorcerer will retrain out his Bluff ranks for Intimidate and pick up Imperious Command to complete his lock down.

First off, are you comparing top level optimization, or mid level?  I was explicitly comparing middle level.  Second, how is this better at killing people?  Snowcasting is only like +2 to DCs at this level.  Still nice though.

Yeah, you can persist something 3+int per day.  Is that notably better than getting to make something go from 50% chance to die to 9% chance to die?

Spells
1st - Any, Enlarge Person, Grease, Nerveskitter, Lesser Orb of Acid.
2nd - Any, Alter Self, Kelgore's Grave Mist, Wings of Cover.
3rd - Greater Shivering Touch, Haste, Summon Monster III.
4th - Burning Blood, Greater Mirror Image.
5th - Feeblemind.

So, you don't have any SoDs?  Like, at all?  Against anything that doesn't die from shivering touch you're stuck doing feeblemind (which doesn't even matter if the creature isn't a caster)?

This list is flat out worse than my list in every case except for greater shivering touch (which is a silly spell anyways).

Runestaff: Animate Dead, GMW, Heart of Water, and Polymorph which costs 9,150gp and is taken out of the weapon budget. Though the whole party saves on weapon costs the Sorcerer declined free items in return, he was like "It's cool man. Just doing my part and all".

As I showed above, beguilers can use runestaffs too.

GMW is persisted and extended so the entire party has +2 weapons for free. When the Sorcerer can he also persists Greater Mirror Image and Heart of Water the day before with his remaining spell slots and Persisting Polymorph is an option as well. Animate Dead comes in when ever. Nerveskitter means the Sorcerer is operating with a +2 bonus to initiative higher than the Beguiler without having to invest in the Improved Initiative feat. SMIII expands his versatility in dozens of ways entirely replacing several spells the Beguiler has. Snowcast Burning Blood is one of his favorite spells and it has a +3 bonus to it's save DC. Snowcast Feeblemind lets him mop the floor when it comes to fighting anything with arcane spells, +3 DC from the aura and the -4 penalty on saves is harsh and later on with armor and intimidate he'll have a full 13 point difference in a standard will vs 5th level spell, so while he has less save or dies than the Beguiler, he is far more effective in this example. Finally, after Polymorphing into a decent melee monster with regeneration he has the option to smack the dex out of people. The only down side to this spell choice cannot target when it comes to weaknesses is HP, but all well. You can't pick all the forms of attack until later on right?

Yeah, nerveskitter is nice.  It was on my example sorcerer.  Everything else just isn't better than actually casting baleful polymorph.  I don't even care about your intimidate optimization because beguilers do that just as well.

The Beguiler on the other hand, has a lot of redundant spells no one cares about. You don't need 24+ save or suck vs will spells when one will do. Or every version of Scry created under the sun. You won't use Mirror Image if you have Greater Mirror Image or Undetectable Alignment when you have Nondetection or minor movement boosters like Spider Climb and Expeditious Retreat when your fly speed is better. Anything with a will save will just laugh at the Beguiler because it had to take a feat just to have a 1/day killer based on a different save.

Dude, your counter to my sorcerer is basically worse in every way at this level.  It gets a bit better later on, but I gave you a sorcerer optimized for level ten.

Seriously, aside from shivering touch, your sorcerer is actually WORSE than mine at this level.  I was being fucking nice by optimizing it that much for a "Middle of the road direct comparison".  I don't know how you could complain about a guy that could get a +4 DC "roll twice and take the worse save" SoD caster with mindsight.  That's seriously potent shit because you fvcking kill people.


Seriously, shut up.  I can't believe you just tried to show me a worse spell list and claim that it is better for shit that I already had on my example spell list (nerveskitter) and with lower DC "Oh shit" options.  It doesn't even have a fucking save or die.  Feeblemind is not even as good as hold monster (which beguilers get).

Really, use my example sorcerer and trade out a third level spell known for greater shivering touch.  Every other change you made is fucking retarded.

PS: There was one thing that I did wrong.  Fatespinner requires 4th level spells which means neither class can have 4 levels of it.  Both would have to be:
X 5/Mindbender 1/ Something 1/ Fatespinner.
Not a huge impact, but it was illegal (so -1 to DC on that spin fate).

[The Lurker]

Straw Man.

Quoting isn't a strawman.  You said straight up that a Factotum using Alter Self at 5th level is Theoretical Optimization.  It's nearly a freaking quote from your Tier thread.  I believe I said "Factotums can cast Alter Self" and you replied "CO != TO."

Give me the link to the quote.  Taking someone's words out of context is just as good as lying, JaronK.  I don't take kindly to liars (like you).

Again, I've never said that sorcerer is not better at playing DBZ.

DBZ has nothing to do with anything.  It seems that "DBZ" to you means "preparing for combat, then winning combat through superior preparation."  So yes, Sorcerers are better at that, thus meaning they're a more powerful class.  You act as though downtime here means 6 months of off time.  I'm talking about a day of downtime, for example while traveling from location to location or spending one day in town, or ocassionally just a few minutes of downtime before you go to sleep after a day of adventuring.  Spell slots are a daily thing, not monthly.

Explosive runes is "I Win" against anything without evasion.  This makes the game bland and boring.
Shrink item is "I win so long as the DM lets me do it without an attack roll or a reflex save and doesn't realize that falling damage vastly exceeds the amount of damage third level spells do and thus leaves me casting a fifth level spell in a third level slot"
Haunt shift is "I win against all melee ever"

Really, I don't care.  These are exploits that I've never heard stories of repeated use in games from anyone but you.  I've heard plenty of stories of people deciding these exploits are stupid and not using them in their games though.

And really, if you have JaronK level rules exploit knowledge, you're not using the tier system anyways.  The people this tier system actually benefits will never, ever do any exploit you've cited in this entire thread.  They might as well not exist for the purpose of this thread because knowledge of them implies a level of rules mastery that is far beyond anyone that will be helped by the rankings.

@DerWille:  Blue Ice.  It's a material that never melts, but is ice cold all the time.  Just make a small cooler and keep some snow in it.  Then throw it on the back of a donkey or in your Handy Haversack or whereever you keep gear.  Also, Sorcerers can get plenty of spells that freeze stuff.

With that said, what's all this about persisting Greater Magic Weapon?  That doesn't work. 

Me, I'd do a generic Sorcerer build that was something like Sorcerer 4/Mage of the Arcane Order 10 (I keep using that PrC, but it's a basic completes PrC that's pretty much never called out as overpowered, so it's good for talking about average characters) with Eschew Materials, Cooperative Spell, Create Wonderous Item, Create Staff, and whatever other fun feats you want (I like Arcane Thesis Wings of Flurry because throwing lots of dice in damage can be fun, and a few metamagics that go well with that).  Then take some nice combat spells (Glitterdust, Cloudkill, Wings of Flurry, Wings of Cover) and some nice utility spells that you want to use a lot (Alter Self, Explosive Runes, Shrink Item) and use Mage of the Arcane Order to cover your other spell needs.  Prepare for combat with spells like Extended Greater Floating Disk and all that, and summon minion allies via Planar Binding/Animate Dead and such to do the tanking for you.  If you prepare correctly, you shouldn't really have to cast in combat much, if at all.  Heck, a Necrosis Carnex should be able to heal your undead minions just fine while you float above the battle on your Greater Floating Disk inside a metal box of some kind (for protection).  That should keep you safe while your minions do most of the work, and you can throw down Kelgor's Grave Mist and Cloudkill to tip the battle in your favor when you need.

JaronK

Give me a full write up of the spell list and feats and I'll totally discuss this with you.

[dark_samuari]

What about a challenge perhaps? I happen to believe the way of the gentleman is through action after a debate like what we have seen here.

What say you Lurker & Jaron K? Each of you construct a build (without any 'cheese,' which would be defined) and run it through an appropriate level-based gauntlet and afterwards discuss the results.

I mean, we can stay in the realm of theoretical debate but it's time for us to become practical. No?