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lans
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« Reply #600 on: July 23, 2009, 10:40:34 AM » |
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I would put it at tier 2 at level 20. The DC to do Gate is 45, which is not even at were trying levels. I will say its tier 2 when its in autoquicken mode also Remember though that the Tier system emphasizes the levels people are most likely to play, so 16-20 is given the least emphasis. If it I had been counting level 20 as particularly important, the Healer would go up a Tier or two and so would the Factotum. JaronK Yes, but I am also putting it in tier 2 when it can autoquicken. |
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Skill prodigy from Kingdoms of Kalamar
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lans
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« Reply #601 on: July 23, 2009, 10:43:20 AM » |
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I still don't think it hits tier 1. It has a limited number of tricks available, which by itself usually puts a class in tier 2. Maybe even tier 3, since it is assumed that most classes can raise themselves one tier with proper item selection and an optimized build.
I'd put it lower than that. Remember, the optimized guy should be compared with other optimized classes of its tier (because the system assumes equal optimization). I'd say a Truenamer who's that optimized is probably comperable to a similarly optimized Warlock (Truenamer 18/Marshal 1/Exemplar 1 with exactly the custom items he wants and Item Familiar, vs Binder 1/Warlock 13/Hellfire Warlock 3 with a major bloodline and all the custom gear he wants? It's close). So I'd say Tier 4 with everything it wants, Tier 6 without much that it wants. JaronK I agree... 4-6, but since its sooo bad without that system it shuold definately be rated as tier 6. Again, its the old fighter argument "The fighter is tier 1 cause he can use an arifact sword or whatever" It's silly in so many ways that we're ranking this based on its available items. And if we stick to WBL I think they should be fine at tier 3 for most of there career, with out level dips outside the class, and with pretty much only core, tome of magic, and another book for a race. I think thats quite a reasonable level of optimization for a base rating. |
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Skill prodigy from Kingdoms of Kalamar
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Midnight_v
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« Reply #602 on: July 23, 2009, 06:36:36 PM » |
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Its interesting you should say "if we stick to wbl" cause yes that works but... There are many people who could write a treatise on eqipment optimization and make it seem as though any class it a tier or two higher that what it is. I mean does anyone remember Sir giacomo's "joker monk" over at gitp? When you start going off the items available you're not really measuring the class so much anymore, if the class need a very specific item to work or it doesn't "really work" then we should assume they don't get that item really unless it's written into the class. We didn't rate paladin based on him having a holy avenger. Though on some level I can see what you're saying its just so obvious sometimes to me what a class is or isnt doing on its own. If you look at Surreals Handy links the Majority of optimization builds occur sans equipment optimization. Most of whats being optimized is class features/feats/prc combinations. With a very few exceptions. So maybe thats why I feel the way I do about it. I don't personally hate the class or anything it just as a rule of thumb you can almost measure the suckiness of a class by, how much equipment does it need to do its job... at all... Tier 1 doesn't really NEED anything (no a spellbook counts as a class feature for purposes of this argument.) and each tier decending have a higher and higher reliance on items. To the point that you get down to classes that don't work well without item optimization. Using the artificer in those arguments in is kind of mendacious because making items that do magic is his whole schickt plus he gets an experience pool to make items. Where as if we go off a strict "core" interpretation making an item should really put you behind the party, unless of course you're looking at experience as a river or whatever. ... sigh... long post is long.  |
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« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 06:38:30 PM by Midnight_v »
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\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"
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Kuroimaken
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« Reply #603 on: July 23, 2009, 07:17:10 PM » |
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Long post is long, but it gets the point across.  I had this Binder character in a campaign where we ended up basically itemless and penniless somewhere from level 5 all the way up to 16. At no point did I feel my character was useless, though he was definitely not what I'd call a campaign crusher. |
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JaronK
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« Reply #604 on: July 23, 2009, 07:55:04 PM » |
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I agree... 4-6, but since its sooo bad without that system it shuold definately be rated as tier 6.
Again, its the old fighter argument "The fighter is tier 1 cause he can use an arifact sword or whatever" It's silly in so many ways that we're ranking this based on its available items.
Well yeah, that's why he's not ranked at all... it's just too campaign dependent. I think in average campaigns he's liable to be low Tier 5/high Tier 6, as you pretty much need custom items or Item Familiars to make it function... and what Tier 5/6 class isn't solid with custom items anyway? Heck, I can make a pretty awesome Commoner with non custom but all perfectly chosen gear. JaronK |
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Midnight_v
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« Reply #605 on: July 23, 2009, 07:58:05 PM » |
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I agree... 4-6, but since its sooo bad without that system it shuold definately be rated as tier 6.
Again, its the old fighter argument "The fighter is tier 1 cause he can use an arifact sword or whatever" It's silly in so many ways that we're ranking this based on its available items.
Well yeah, that's why he's not ranked at all... it's just too campaign dependent. I think in average campaigns he's liable to be low Tier 5/high Tier 6, as you pretty much need custom items or Item Familiars to make it function... and what Tier 5/6 class isn't solid with custom items anyway? Heck, I can make a pretty awesome Commoner with non custom but all perfectly chosen gear. LOL, I know you can't but please... please don't.  JaronK |
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\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"
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The_Mad_Linguist
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« Reply #606 on: July 23, 2009, 08:33:48 PM » |
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Too late
Ring of Telekinesis & a variety pack of Colossal++++ darkwood crossbow bolts(16d6 apiece!).
Fifteen attacks per round, each dealing 16d6 damage.
Can we say 240d6 per round?
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dark_samuari
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« Reply #607 on: July 23, 2009, 08:37:35 PM » |
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I have to agree with Midnight_V on his claims. It just seems like rating the gun and not the hand behind it.
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lans
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« Reply #608 on: July 23, 2009, 08:45:13 PM » |
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I have to agree with Midnight_V on his claims. It just seems like rating the gun and not the hand behind it.
We are talking about an item that the class is assumed, by the book, to obtain as soon as the character has the resources available. I do not think that it is a to big of an assumption to say that the class will have the item. Especially when it can make the item itself. |
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« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 08:48:31 PM by lans »
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Skill prodigy from Kingdoms of Kalamar
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Optimator
Bi-Curious George
Posts: 495
Made Man
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« Reply #609 on: July 23, 2009, 08:51:06 PM » |
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Its interesting you should say "if we stick to wbl" cause yes that works but...
There are many people who could write a treatise on eqipment optimization and make it seem as though any class it a tier or two higher that what it is.
I mean does anyone remember Sir giacomo's "joker monk" over at gitp?
Oh my freaking lord... that was rough. That post was so... it defies description. |
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Midnight_v
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« Reply #610 on: July 23, 2009, 09:04:35 PM » |
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Its interesting you should say "if we stick to wbl" cause yes that works but...
There are many people who could write a treatise on eqipment optimization and make it seem as though any class it a tier or two higher that what it is.
I mean does anyone remember Sir giacomo's "joker monk" over at gitp?
Oh my freaking lord... that was rough. That post was so... it defies description.  I'm sorry I'm sorry. I would have not mentioned it if I though everyone wasn't familiar with it. I'd have never directed anyone to look at that fresh and new. (which is why I didn't post a link) |
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\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"
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Kuroimaken
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« Reply #611 on: July 23, 2009, 09:09:22 PM » |
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We can at least all agree the Truenamer is dependent on equipment to do his thing, right?
Even assuming a bare minimum, the Truenamer is like an impotent male prostitute who can't do anything right without his toys. Since the tier system assumes relatively minimal optimization, at BEST this guy is on par with a Fighter. MAYBE. Sure a truespeech item isn't a stretch, but Item familiar/Elder Evils/Marshal dips ARE, as far as minimum logical optimization is concerned.
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lans
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« Reply #612 on: July 23, 2009, 10:58:31 PM » |
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We can at least all agree the Truenamer is dependent on equipment to do his thing, right?
Even assuming a bare minimum, the Truenamer is like an impotent male prostitute who can't do anything right without his toys. Since the tier system assumes relatively minimal optimization, at BEST this guy is on par with a Fighter. MAYBE. Sure a truespeech item isn't a stretch, but Item familiar/Elder Evils/Marshal dips ARE, as far as minimum logical optimization is concerned.
What is minimal optimization though? I consider a race that goes well with the class, a couple of feats, appropriate tools, a must have magic item or two, and a 16 or so as a starting ability score to be minimal optimization, and maybe a helpful trait does any one disagree? |
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Skill prodigy from Kingdoms of Kalamar
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dark_samuari
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« Reply #613 on: July 23, 2009, 11:01:24 PM » |
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What is minimal optimization though? This will be a fun question for us to answer seeing as most of us are extremely bias in regards to it. |
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JaronK
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« Reply #614 on: July 23, 2009, 11:08:08 PM » |
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What is minimal optimization though? I consider a race that goes well with the class, a couple of feats, appropriate tools, a must have magic item or two, and a 16 or so as a starting ability score to be minimal optimization, and maybe a helpful trait does any one disagree?
I disagree, as I've dealt with a lot of low magic games lately. Heck, I'm in two D&D games currently and DMing a third, and none have full WBL (though one is close), and never seen a full magic mart where we could buy everything. Now, I've had games in the past with full WBL, but even those didn't have magic marts where you always got what you wanted. Certainly, any class with a "must have magic item or two" is in a lot of trouble. Furthermore, I've never had traits allowed. Now, I don't really want to count the low magic games per se, as that's not quite following the normal rules. But minimal optimization for me would be randomized loot at WBL (as the DMG assumes) and core races, as I've seen those rules an awful lot. And with that, the Truenamer is not functional. JaronK |
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lans
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« Reply #615 on: July 23, 2009, 11:47:16 PM » |
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What is minimal optimization though? I consider a race that goes well with the class, a couple of feats, appropriate tools, a must have magic item or two, and a 16 or so as a starting ability score to be minimal optimization, and maybe a helpful trait does any one disagree?
I disagree, as I've dealt with a lot of low magic games lately. Heck, I'm in two D&D games currently and DMing a third, and none have full WBL (though one is close), and never seen a full magic mart where we could buy everything. Now, I've had games in the past with full WBL, but even those didn't have magic marts where you always got what you wanted. Certainly, any class with a "must have magic item or two" is in a lot of trouble. If it can build the item itself is it still in trouble? Furthermore, I've never had traits allowed. Would you say an beneficial trait for when they are allowed to be with in the confines of minimal optimization? Now, I don't really want to count the low magic games per se, as that's not quite following the normal rules. But minimal optimization for me would be randomized loot at WBL (as the DMG assumes) and core races, as I've seen those rules an awful lot.
Is that what I posted with changing those things? Instead of 1 or 2 key items randomized, and stick to core with race? And if it can make the items it needs how does that factor in? And with that, the Truenamer is not functional. Maybe, but I think it might be workable. |
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Skill prodigy from Kingdoms of Kalamar
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dark_samuari
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« Reply #616 on: July 23, 2009, 11:50:14 PM » |
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Should we perhaps define minimal optimization capabilities before truly critiquing the Truenamer?
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The_Mad_Linguist
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« Reply #617 on: July 23, 2009, 11:53:11 PM » |
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Look, can we just leave the 1 as a footnote and move on?
1 truenamer
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lans
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« Reply #618 on: July 24, 2009, 12:02:29 AM » |
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What is minimal optimization though? This will be a fun question for us to answer seeing as most of us are extremely bias in regards to it. If the tier system is based off of it, then we need something of a consensus on it. Should we perhaps define minimal optimization capabilities before truly critiquing the Truenamer?
I was just about to post this, to add, the truenamer is the one class were it matters the most, its kind of on a pin needle. As opposed to dreadnecros, beguilers and warmages are kind of on a big ass plateu as fare as minimal optimization is concerned. They just have many choices that really matter on a tier wise scale. |
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Skill prodigy from Kingdoms of Kalamar
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JaronK
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« Reply #619 on: July 24, 2009, 12:20:13 AM » |
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The Tier system is based only on everyone in the party having a similar level of optimization... not any static amount. A poorly optimized Wizard is roughly equivalent to a poorly optimized Cleric, and far stronger than a poorly optimized Fighter. The same is true if all three are heavily optimized. Optimization only moves you up or down a tier if the rest of your party isn't optimized the same amount.
And yeah, I did make the Truenamer a footnote in the Tier system, and hopefully now you guys can see why.
JaronK
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