Tier System for Classes

[Braithwaite]

I certainly consider using versatile spellcaster as a route to early PRC entry as a top tier optimization trick. It is from a relatively late splatbook (Races of the Dragon) and it is very arguably not how the feat was meant to be used.

I am not saying that to exclude it from consideration, only to say that the Beguiler has much better options for his cheesy prestige class choices. How about this one. You use versatile spellcaster to get your turning 2 levels early, I'll use it for early entry to rainbow servant (text over table), and at level 14 I will add all cleric spells to my list.

Now, which level of optimization was it where you feel like the FS beats the Beguiler?

[Kuroimaken]

Putting a bit of that into perspective... The favored soul is also a spontaneous caster, which means he has access to Versatile Spellcaster. Thus, he can enter a PrC that gives him turning relatively early. He also can pick from the cleric list, but he doesn't NEED everything on that list. Favored Soul is weaker than a Cleric because he needs to jump through more loops to get almost everything a cleric gets, but he's not behind the beguiler because he still gets to access most of the good stuff that makes a cleric awesome, whereas the beguiler is restricted forever by his spell list.

So, you would argue that having divine power, freedom of movement, and deathward is better than having charm monster, crushing despair, freedom of movement, greater invisibility, greater mirror image, locate creature, mass whelm, phantom battle, rainbow pattern, and solid fog?

Is this correct?  Divine power and deathward together are more potent than charm monster, crushing despair, greater invisibility, greater mirror image, locate creature, mass whelm, phantom battle, rainbow pattern, and solid fog?

And no, I didn't deliberately select a beguiler spell.  Freedom of movement is just one of the top cleric spells for level 4.

Yes, mostly because no matter what I say, you're not going to listen anyway. Hey, here are a couple of spells that can make your day too -  Superior Resistance and Delay Death. One of them makes difference in saves pointless (and lasts 24 hours to boot), the other makes you unkillable via HP damage and is Persistable. Neither requires a save from another person to function. Neither is useless against a very large portion of monsters in the game.

I certainly consider using versatile spellcaster as a route to early PRC entry as a top tier optimization trick. It is from a relatively late splatbook (Races of the Dragon) and it is very arguably not how the feat was meant to be used.

I am not saying that to exclude it from consideration, only to say that the Beguiler has much better options for his cheesy prestige class choices. How about this one. You use versatile spellcaster to get your turning 2 levels early, I'll use it for early entry to rainbow servant (text over table), and at level 14 I will add all cleric spells to my list.

Now, which level of optimization was it where you feel like the FS beats the Beguiler?

Yeah - and taking Rainbow Servant with a class that knows all spells on his list isn't.  Bravo.

By the way, the Warmage gets access to the very same trick, yet you don't see me comparing FS to him. By that metric, the Dread Necromancer and the Warmage are both higher tiers than they should be.

The turning can be resolved with a dip in Cleric anyway - you'll lose a caster level, sure, but it's a small price to pay. Between a Rainbow Warmage and, say, Dweomerkeeper, which do you think wins out in terms of class features?

Versatile Spellcaster is an awesome feat on its own, though, since it adds quite a bit of flexibility to your spell slots.

[The Lurker]

Putting a bit of that into perspective... The favored soul is also a spontaneous caster, which means he has access to Versatile Spellcaster. Thus, he can enter a PrC that gives him turning relatively early. He also can pick from the cleric list, but he doesn't NEED everything on that list. Favored Soul is weaker than a Cleric because he needs to jump through more loops to get almost everything a cleric gets, but he's not behind the beguiler because he still gets to access most of the good stuff that makes a cleric awesome, whereas the beguiler is restricted forever by his spell list.

So, you would argue that having divine power, freedom of movement, and deathward is better than having charm monster, crushing despair, freedom of movement, greater invisibility, greater mirror image, locate creature, mass whelm, phantom battle, rainbow pattern, and solid fog?

Is this correct?  Divine power and deathward together are more potent than charm monster, crushing despair, greater invisibility, greater mirror image, locate creature, mass whelm, phantom battle, rainbow pattern, and solid fog?

And no, I didn't deliberately select a beguiler spell.  Freedom of movement is just one of the top cleric spells for level 4.

Yes, mostly because no matter what I say, you're not going to listen anyway. Hey, here are a couple of spells that can make your day too -  Superior Resistance and Delay Death. One of them makes difference in saves pointless (and lasts 24 hours to boot), the other makes you unkillable via HP damage and is Persistable. Neither requires a save from another person to function. Neither is useless against a very large portion of monsters in the game.

I grabbed those because those are in the SRD and it was handy.  Superior resistance is a sixth level spell.  How you're getting it at level 8 (when you're learning 4th level spells), I have no idea.  Could you share it with me?  It seems like a really sweet trick.

Delay death on the other hand, is fucking great.

So, you're saying that Divine Power, Delay Death, and Death Ward combined are better than charm monster, crushing despair, freedom of movement, greater invisibility, greater mirror image, locate creature, mass whelm, phantom battle, rainbow pattern, and solid fog?

Divine power makes you competent in melee (since you have no spell combat enders).  Delay death is just good (drop a top level slot so that an ally doesn't have level loss; doesn't do anything about the ally dropping out of combat without beastland's ferocity).  Deathward is about on par with freedom of movement (just an immunity you need to pick up over time).

I'll call it even on death ward versus freedom of movement.
Divine power is just need for basic competence since you have no combat ending spells.
Delay death allows allies to not have level loss from death.

Am I correct in saying that you believe that these three spells trump everything the beguiler gets at this level?

[Braithwaite]

Yeah - and taking Rainbow Servant with a class that knows all spells on his list isn't.  Bravo.

By the way, the Warmage gets access to the very same trick, yet you don't see me comparing FS to him. By that metric, the Dread Necromancer and the Warmage are both higher tiers than they should be.

The turning can be resolved with a dip in Cleric anyway - you'll lose a caster level, sure, but it's a small price to pay. Between a Rainbow Warmage and, say, Dweomerkeeper, which do you think wins out in terms of class features?

Versatile Spellcaster is an awesome feat on its own, though, since it adds quite a bit of flexibility to your spell slots.

I never said it wasn't cheesy. I said that if the FS is running at the top level of optimization, so is the beguiler. The versatile spellcaster trick is cheesy and broken, and I don't use it in games, but it is equally available to beguilers as it is to Favored souls. You talk about stuff a FS can do without prestige classes, Beguiler can beat it with the same limits.

Warmage clearly loses to Favored Soul on the bottom and middle level of optimization. A Rainbow Warmage blows compared to a well built favored soul (even without Dweomerkeeper) until level 14. Neither one is what we are talking about.

Dweomerkeeper is much harder to enter than Rainbow Servant. Rainbow servant only requires versatile spellcaster and 4 ranks of knowledge arcane to enter at level 4. Your DMM/Dweomerkeeper from Favored Soul requires a cleric dip, a sorcerer dip, and 6 feats (Versatile spellcaster, Item Creation, Extend Spell, Persist Spell, DMM, EWP shuriken) just to enter, not to mention the ability to cast dispel magic. It is multiple levels behind the beguiler with an optimized build for its entire progression, and honestly, I wouldn't put it ahead of the rainbow beguiler or the shadowcraft beguiler at any level. Yeah, metamagic modification is neat, but now you have only 3 9th level spells known, and the Beguiler has dozens, and has had them from 2 levels earlier.

My point is, without PRCs, the beguiler is better, or at least as good. The beguiler broken PRCs are more broken than the Favored Soul PRCs.

[Kuroimaken]

Yeah - and taking Rainbow Servant with a class that knows all spells on his list isn't.  Bravo.

By the way, the Warmage gets access to the very same trick, yet you don't see me comparing FS to him. By that metric, the Dread Necromancer and the Warmage are both higher tiers than they should be.

The turning can be resolved with a dip in Cleric anyway - you'll lose a caster level, sure, but it's a small price to pay. Between a Rainbow Warmage and, say, Dweomerkeeper, which do you think wins out in terms of class features?

Versatile Spellcaster is an awesome feat on its own, though, since it adds quite a bit of flexibility to your spell slots.

I never said it wasn't cheesy. I said that if the FS is running at the top level of optimization, so is the beguiler. The versatile spellcaster trick is cheesy and broken, and I don't use it in games, but it is equally available to beguilers as it is to Favored souls. You talk about stuff a FS can do without prestige classes, Beguiler can beat it with the same limits.

Warmage clearly loses to Favored Soul on the bottom and middle level of optimization. A Rainbow Warmage blows compared to a well built favored soul (even without Dweomerkeeper) until level 14. Neither one is what we are talking about.

Dweomerkeeper is much harder to enter than Rainbow Servant. Rainbow servant only requires versatile spellcaster and 4 ranks of knowledge arcane to enter at level 4. Your DMM/Dweomerkeeper from Favored Soul requires a cleric dip, a sorcerer dip, and 6 feats (Versatile spellcaster, Item Creation, Extend Spell, Persist Spell, DMM, EWP shuriken) just to enter, not to mention the ability to cast dispel magic. It is multiple levels behind the beguiler with an optimized build for its entire progression, and honestly, I wouldn't put it ahead of the rainbow beguiler or the shadowcraft beguiler at any level. Yeah, metamagic modification is neat, but now you have only 3 9th level spells known, and the Beguiler has dozens, and has had them from 2 levels earlier.

My point is, without PRCs, the beguiler is better, or at least as good. The beguiler broken PRCs are more broken than the Favored Soul PRCs.

I doubt we're talking about the same Dweomerkeeper, by the way (I'm referring to the one in the Complete Divine Web Enhancement). The Sorcerer dip can be completely ignored by means of the magical training feat (since the Dweomerkeeper entry in the CD WE doesn't specify levels). The Cleric dip can be averted by taking a level in Contemplative instead, though in that case it's a late bloomer (and either way you don't get to be able to enter Dweomerkeeper until level 5 due to skill requirements).

There's nothing particularly broken and/or cheesy about the Versatile Spellcaster entry trick. No PrC that I know of offers a casting progression of its own before you should be able to get those spells (I.E. no 4th-level spells before level 8, for example), so either way you're not actually getting ahead of anyone - you're trading your regular class features for those the PrC offers, and that doesn't garantee that the game will break (quite often because the class features themselves aren't made to work at lower levels). Think of it this way. A Human Ranger can take the Wildshape ACF and qualify for Master of Many Forms by level 2. Sure he gets access to all different creature types (excluding outsider, undead and construct, unless he becomes one), but he won't be able to use them until he becomes higher level, due to HD constraints. Something similar occurs with a Versatile Spellcaster - you're essentially trading a feat in for a set of different class features, but whether they'll be useful or not depends a lot on the PrC in question, and that's not even taking into account feats the class itself may require.

As for Favored Soul versus Beguiler, I can offer you this much: my experience with Favored Souls is vastly different than with Beguilers. It might just be that the staggering number of mind- and enchantment-immune monsters for me considerably weakens the Beguiler, but I find that Favored Soul ends up as a better because he's not restrained by the kind of abilities he has available to him. He can do whatever a Cleric can do, but not EVERYTHING a Cleric does, at once. The Beguiler can't say the same of its Tier 1 counterpart. That's the definition I'm sticking by.

[JaronK]

It should be noted that Favoured Souls, via Dragon Magic, have access to Wizard and Sorc spells below level 7.  And then they can, with an easy dip, persist them via DMM.  Also, Anima Mage has a divine variant, which goes great with Tenebrous Apostate.  Favoured Souls have quite a bit going for them.

Favoured Souls also share with Sorcerers the ability to cast a spell today which helps them tomorrow.  Beguilers can do this only a little bit, and only via Arcane Disciple or similar tricks.  It's much like the way a few people used to argue about how awesome Fighters are by saying they could take Martial Study to get manuevers.  That's nice, but their version is far inferior to a martial class just taking the manuevers.

In the end, Beguilers are a strong class that can often have a spell that's really helpful in THIS encounter.  That's great.  Sorcerers have spells that make them much better in the future, which means they can spend temporary resources (spells per day) to get permanent effects.  Favored Souls can do the same.  Those things make the two classes have a lot more raw power in the long run, even without considering the absolute gamebreaker spells that both have.

JaronK

[The Lurker]

It should be noted that Favoured Souls, via Dragon Magic, have access to Wizard and Sorc spells below level 7.  And then they can, with an easy dip, persist them via DMM.  Also, Anima Mage has a divine variant, which goes great with Tenebrous Apostate.  Favoured Souls have quite a bit going for them.

This is pretty notable.  Could you show me an example of an 8th level favored soul's spells known (best possible case)?  I'll show you the beguiler's best case.  Direct comparisons actually show things.

Favoured Souls also share with Sorcerers the ability to cast a spell today which helps them tomorrow.  Beguilers can do this only a little bit, and only via Arcane Disciple or similar tricks.  It's much like the way a few people used to argue about how awesome Fighters are by saying they could take Martial Study to get manuevers.  That's nice, but their version is far inferior to a martial class just taking the manuevers.

In the end, Beguilers are a strong class that can often have a spell that's really helpful in THIS encounter.  That's great.  Sorcerers have spells that make them much better in the future, which means they can spend temporary resources (spells per day) to get permanent effects.  Favored Souls can do the same.  Those things make the two classes have a lot more raw power in the long run, even without considering the absolute gamebreaker spells that both have.

JaronK

Beguilers can enter wish economy.  If that isn't permanent, I don't know what is.

Seriously, if you actually think that falling damage exploits are worth talking about, we should be discussing staffs of holy word.  As is, falling damage exploits and explosive rune bombs are stupid and not worth talking about.

[JaronK]

This is pretty notable.  Could you show me an example of an 8th level favored soul's spells known (best possible case)?  I'll show you the beguiler's best case.  Direct comparisons actually show things.

Considering that variant gives you a spell at level 12 and level 4, why would you pick level 8 as being a good level to demonstrate how that works?

Beguilers can enter wish economy.  If that isn't permanent, I don't know what is.

Seriously, if you actually think that falling damage exploits are worth talking about, we should be discussing staffs of holy word.  As is, falling damage exploits and explosive rune bombs are stupid and not worth talking about.

Interesting that you pick things that any Sorcerer can do regardless of books allowed (since it's core) as being not worth talking about, while picking up on items a Beguiler can't make and which are thus not going to show up in most campaigns for a Beguiler as being relevant.  You can call using Shrink Item an exploit, but most people would simply call it a creative use of a powerful spell.  Same thing with Explosive Runes.  Your whole argument is boiling down to "Beguilers are more powerful, because nobody actually uses Sorcerers to their full potential."  Or if you prefer, "Beguilers are more powerful, because DMs would never allow a Sorcerer to be more powerful than a Beguiler."  I've seen that argument before, only it used to be about Fighters and how Fighters were totally better than Wizards because using spells like Shivering Touch and whatnot was exploitive and no DM would allow it.

Plus, Beguilers enter the wish economy by being handed runestaffs that bring them into it.  Commoners do the same thing with a Candle of Invocation.  So what?  "If I'm given the right game breaking gear, my class can break the game" is a Class X fallacy.

In fact, you're admitting that Sorcerers are more powerful simply because you assume that Sorcerers actually using their strongest spells would be overpowered and not allowed.  That's fine... that's what Tier 2 means.  Tier 3 is the tier for solid classes that get the job done quite well and are flexible.  Tier 2 is for classes that come broken pretty much out of the box if you just make a few of the stronger choices.

So yes, it's overpowered to use Explosive Rune bombs (well, not THAT overpowered, is it really much worse than a pouncing Barbarian?  Dead is dead, no matter how much extra damage you do) and Shrink Item drops.  Or to use Shrink Item to steal large valuable objects (I've stolen many a giant statue that way, only to reanimate it with Haunt Shift later on down the line).  Yes, DMs probably shouldn't allow that sort of thing.  And yes, any Sorcerer could just take those spells as spells known from level 6 on, if they wanted to.  It's broken.  That's Tier 2.  Tier 3s are much harder to break, and when played without a bunch of books and an eye for exploits you certainly won't break them accidentally (which happens with Sorcs).  Sure, a Beguiler could take a bunch of Arcane Disciples, or be given a custom Runestaff of Ultimate Power.  A Crusader can do infinite damage.  A Warblade can get infinite attacks.  But all of these things require specifically trying for breakage, and the DM can see them a mile off.  Remember, part of the point of the Tier system is to allow DMs to have an idea of what's coming.  I'm not too worried about warning them that a Rogue or Beguiler might be really powerful if given too many powerful custom magic items, as the DM gave them that.  I'm much more worried about a DM being blindsided by the Sorcerer taking a few spells known when he levels up and suddenly being able to do all kinds of crazy stuff, which can be anywhere from broken to overpowered to just really strong depending on the rule limitations.

JaronK

[The Lurker]

This is pretty notable.  Could you show me an example of an 8th level favored soul's spells known (best possible case)?  I'll show you the beguiler's best case.  Direct comparisons actually show things.

Considering that variant gives you a spell at level 12 and level 4, why would you pick level 8 as being a good level to demonstrate how that works?

I like level 8.  Level four spells are when people start getting cool shit.

Sorcerers get more ways to break the game, but in an unbroken game they get their asses outclassed by an equally optimized beguiler.

Seriously, we don't care how many ways you can break the game.  Once the game is broken, it is broken

You can't break something twice, JaronK.  It doesn't matter if you have a second hammer if it doesn't ever get used.

[lans]

This is pretty notable.  Could you show me an example of an 8th level favored soul's spells known (best possible case)?  I'll show you the beguiler's best case.  Direct comparisons actually show things.

Considering that variant gives you a spell at level 12 and level 4, why would you pick level 8 as being a good level to demonstrate how that works?

I like level 8.  Level four spells are when people start getting cool shit.

Sorcerers get more ways to break the game, but in an unbroken game they get their asses outclassed by an equally optimized beguiler.

Seriously, we don't care how many ways you can break the game.  Once the game is broken, it is broken

You can't break something twice, JaronK.  It doesn't matter if you have a second hammer if it doesn't ever get used.

The DM can ban/nerf broken item 1, and sorcerer can pick up broken item 2 the next time he levels up.

[The Lurker]

The DM can ban/nerf broken item 1, and sorcerer can pick up broken item 2 the next time he levels up.

Edit: That was waaaay too harsh.

That doesn't really address my point.  Every game will have a maximum allowable level of cheese.  At any level the beguiler can match it pretty damn closely with an arcane disciple or three and be doing the same thing (arcane disciple ranges from MORE WISHES to Polymorph lines to stuff like shivering touch).  Heck, this is without even delving into rainbow servant crap.

But yeah, whatever the sorcerer gets, the beguiler can get too.  On top of his base spells.  And no, it doesn't have a real cost to do this.

[Kuroimaken]

Lurker, we're dealing with an objective system here. RAI as well as how far a DM will let you go are both subjective points.

We default to RAW rather than RAI the majority of the time, and taking a good, long look at RAW, the Beguiler falls behind the sorcerer, and the Favored Soul is at the same tier as the Sorcerer. That's as simple as things get.

[Kaelik]

Lurker, we're dealing with an objective system here. RAI as well as how far a DM will let you go are both subjective points.

We default to RAW rather than RAI the majority of the time, and taking a good, long look at RAW, the Beguiler falls behind the sorcerer, and the Favored Soul is at the same tier as the Sorcerer. That's as simple as things get.

And RAW, everyone is Pun Pun, and everyone can do it at the first level they can afford a Candle of Invocation, which is before anyone can do it with spells.

Who is the most powerful Pun Pun isn't even an actual competition. Nor is who can get there first. What you can do without breaking the game is a viable measure of power, because it involves an unbroken game, IE one you might actually play in.

[lans]

We default to RAW rather than RAI the majority of the time, and taking a good, long look at RAW, the Beguiler falls behind the sorcerer, and the Favored Soul is at the same tier as the Sorcerer. That's as simple as things get.

But doesn't favor soul also fall behind sorcerer? So a beguiler might be able to take the spot between them. What broken spells do clerics get any way?

I would say that with lots of prep time an arcane disciple beguiler and sorcerer might largely even out. Lets say after a year a beguiler will have 365 PAOed things, shrunk items, and rune bombs. Do to diminishing marginal utility.A sorcerer might have 3000, but do you really need 3000 of those? Or even a hundred for that matter.

Do multiple arcane disciple feats allow you to break 1/level limit? Lets say I had planar ally and create undead and explosive runes from 3 different domains, at 4th level could I cast each of them once or just one of them?

[Midnight_v]

Maybe the argument becomes "anyone who gets 9th level spells" especially if you make a list of them like "THESE" 9th level spells put you on this tier.

  Though frankly I find the arcane disciple bit irrelavant for comparative analysis frankly, its not like its sorc only so its in dead horse land. Its repeated sooo much these last few pages you'd think its was a class ability of beguilers. *shrug*. Still though, I think a better scenario is one in which you attempt to show how they are far and above better than the remainder of the tier 3.
  You may be meeting resistance for various personaly bias's as well as very well thought out arguments that counter your own.

 Not that I agree with you, and as you've so blandly pointed out I've never actually played a beguiler. Though I have played sorcerors, I realize that convincing "me" at least may be made more difficult due to my optimization skill swaying my opinion.
 I mentioned it before, so i figured I'd reiterate. You've argued about 4 pages about how the beguiler > the Sorceror.
Considering its largely a red herring that dissuaded from the orignal argument its worthless to persue that course anyway if met with resolute opposition to the contrary.

 The original idea was "The beguiler belongs on tier 2" okay maybe, the arugment "because its greater than or equal to the sorceror or Favored soul" doesn't seem to meet with a positive reception.
 Therefore, regardless as to whether or not thats the case, if you are correct in your orignial argument, it would be very easy. . . very very easy to demonstrate how the beguiler is simply more powerful than all the other things in its tier.
  This is a logical and reasonable way to reach a proof, as opposed to banging ones head against the wall with an unreceptive idea.
Proving that the Beguiler is just better than everything else in its tier should work too.

ALTERNATIVELY



Take the definition of tier 3.

 Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Examples: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior

and the definition of tier 2

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and world shattering, but not in quite so many ways.  Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

Examples: Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder (with access to online vestiges)  

and instead of attacking and individual class on that list, point out how the beguiler fits more with this definition than the previous works better and probbably is more antagonistic.
I suppose I could give examples of this within other tiers but... I'm sure none of us need to have it needlessly drawn out on a chalkboard.

[JaronK]

Lurker, I know you don't believe in being honorable in a debate, but  misquoting me entirely is absolutely pathetic.  I said nothing like "Sorcerers get more ways to break the game, but in an unbroken game they get their asses outclassed by an equally optimized beguiler."  In fact, I made it clear that the point was that Sorcerers are always able to hit the maximum power level available in any game, while Beguilers can only do so in very low level games, and furthermore that your insistance that powerful Sorcerer tricks are overpowered was clear proof that the Sorcerer was overpowered.  Inability to answer an argument indicates your own argument is flawed... it doesn't indicate that you should just pretend the other person said something different.  Perhaps next you'd like to accuse me of lying, then do a strawman, and then fire off a Godwin, and finally ask other people for arguments in another thread to round out the Uber debate style?

In a game where the DM stops things from being broken, but allows things to be powerful, whatever the most powerful thing is that can be done, the Sorcerer can do a bunch of things at that power level.  The Beguiler usually cannot, or can maybe do one thing if optimized for it.  For every Beguiler trick for serious power, there's a stronger Sorcerer one.  Beguilers can increase their spell list with Arcane Disciple and thus gain one or two nice spells that they can cast once per day each... Sorcerers can take Mage of the Arcane Order and have access to all the utility spells they want from the Sorcerer/Wizard list.  Beguilers can cast the entire Cleric spell list spontaneously with a Dragonwrought Kobold Master of the Horde, while Sorcerers can use Mage of the Arcane Order with Loredrake and the Greater Draconic Rite to cast at +3 Sorcerer level and still have just as many spells off a generally better list.  It doesn't matter what optimization level you do, there's always a way for the Sorcerer to have something stronger unless the DM nerfs everything stronger.  

Really, the difference between the Sorcerer and the Beguiler is much like the difference between the Warblade and the Fighter.  The Fighter can get one or two really strong tricks (do a lot of damage on the charge, do a lot of damage with archery, trip) and do those one or two tricks as well as the Warblade.  But the Warblade can do all kinds of different things.  And you're like the guy who thinks Fighters are awesome and upon hearing that Warblades are great because they have White Raven Tactics says "Look, with two Martial Studies and a cheap item Fighters can get White Raven Tactics once per encounter!  They're clearly better than Warblades!"  And of course they don't get that it wasn't just White Raven Tactics, and there's a big difference between sacrificing valuable feats and just getting something easily as you level up (and getting a better version, too).  It's not a perfect analogy because the Fighter is very inflexible and the Beguiler is far less so, but it holds well.  I mention that Sorcerers can get Animate Dead, and you come back with the fact that Beguilers can spend a feat and gain some MAD to cast that one spell once per day, showing they can be clearly better.

Now, you've said that all you need is one broken thing.  But that's not the point at all.  One broken thing gets nerfed.  One thing at the maximum power available, whatever that is, is most likely not going to work everywhere.  You need a bunch of different powerful options to be really strong.  This is why a Wizard is far stronger than a Sorcerer, and a Sorcerer is far stronger than a Beguiler... because the Wizard can have just about everything there is at the max power level and thus always have some maximum power thing that fits the situation, the Sorcerer can have a bunch of things at the max power level and thus often have some maximum power thing that fits the situation, and the Beguiler can maybe have one or two things at the max power level and thus might occasionally have something at max power that fits the situation.

Certainly, the idea that "whatever the Sorcerer gets, the Beguiler gets too" is silly.  An easy to qualify for class in Complete Arcane (a very common book) gets the Sorcerer access to every single Sorc/Wiz utility spell easily, without being broken like endless Effretti wishes.  Beguilers have nothing like that.  Sorcerers can get bonus spell levels from Greater Draconic Rite, while Beguilers have nothing like that (and of course if you really cheese out, Loredrake and White Dragonspawn).  Sorcerers can have the strongest Wizard/Sorcerer spells at every level, while Beguilers might get a few of those by using up feats but that's it.

JaronK

[The Lurker]

Maybe the argument becomes "anyone who gets 9th level spells" especially if you make a list of them like "THESE" 9th level spells put you on this tier.

  Though frankly I find the arcane disciple bit irrelavant for comparative analysis frankly, its not like its sorc only so its in dead horse land. Its repeated sooo much these last few pages you'd think its was a class ability of beguilers. *shrug*. Still though, I think a better scenario is one in which you attempt to show how they are far and above better than the remainder of the tier 3.
  You may be meeting resistance for various personaly bias's as well as very well thought out arguments that counter your own.

 Not that I agree with you, and as you've so blandly pointed out I've never actually played a beguiler. Though I have played sorcerors, I realize that convincing "me" at least may be made more difficult due to my optimization skill swaying my opinion.
 I mentioned it before, so i figured I'd reiterate. You've argued about 4 pages about how the beguiler > the Sorceror.
Considering its largely a red herring that dissuaded from the orignal argument its worthless to persue that course anyway if met with resolute opposition to the contrary.

 The original idea was "The beguiler belongs on tier 2" okay maybe, the arugment "because its greater than or equal to the sorceror or Favored soul" doesn't seem to meet with a positive reception.
 Therefore, regardless as to whether or not thats the case, if you are correct in your orignial argument, it would be very easy. . . very very easy to demonstrate how the beguiler is simply more powerful than all the other things in its tier.
  This is a logical and reasonable way to reach a proof, as opposed to banging ones head against the wall with an unreceptive idea.
Proving that the Beguiler is just better than everything else in its tier should work too.

ALTERNATIVELY



Take the definition of tier 3.

 Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Examples: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior

and the definition of tier 2

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and world shattering, but not in quite so many ways.  Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

Examples: Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder (with access to online vestiges)  

and instead of attacking and individual class on that list, point out how the beguiler fits more with this definition than the previous works better and probbably is more antagonistic.
I suppose I could give examples of this within other tiers but... I'm sure none of us need to have it needlessly drawn out on a chalkboard.

I reclassified every single class waaaaaaay back.  Do you honestly think I care about convincing everyone that beguiler is tier two?  Because that's just a single point.  Until the point that I am IP banned (or get bored, probably that one) I'm going to go point by point logically proving that different aspects of JaronK's tier system are not only wrong, but that his entire criteria are stupid.  You know where we end up when I'm done?

With a lot more people understanding the game better and a lot less groupthink.  Hopefully, this will result in better designers for homebrew and such.  If I'm *really* lucky, I'll be able to get a few people to accept why the Tomes are good.

But bare minimum, I'm going to make a mockery of JaronK's understanding of the game and be entertained for the last month of summer.  Y'know, because I like pointing out holes in logical thought process.

[The Lurker]

Lurker, I know you don't believe in being honorable in a debate, but...  waaaaaaah!

Please, post an actual argument.  There's not a thing in that entire post I haven't completely addressed.

[lans]

I reclassified every single class waaaaaaay back.  

Do you have a link? I'm interested in this.

[The Lurker]

I reclassified every single class waaaaaaay back.  

Do you have a link? I'm interested in this.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2252.0