Tier System for Classes

[The_Mad_Linguist]

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[The Lurker]

So, let me repost my list of beguiler feats:
Arcane Disciple
Improved Init
Nymph's Kiss
Sculpt Spell
Vow of Nonviolence
Mindsight

Runner ups: Spell focus

It's still a damn short list, and vow of nonviolence has such massive RP hang ups that it's too much of a hassle to deal with in most games (but very sexy in the ones that can).

Are you assuming taking a level of Mindbender for Mindsight, or is that unnecessary?  If so, I think there's a non-good alignment requirement, which means you're going to be choosing between Mindsight or the Exalted feats.  The alignment restriction effectively makes them mutually exclusive.  This actually shortens your feat list into two alignment-based lists, freeing up more feats for Arcane Disciple.

Yes, I'm saying with the mindbender dip.  I'm not saying all at once.  I'm saying those are the feats you'll give a damn about at all on a beguiler.

@Lurker: Let me take a quick look off your feats list.

Let's take a quick moment to remember where each of them is from.

Arcane Disciple: Complete Divine.
Improved Init, Spell Focus: Core
Nymph's Kiss, Vow of Nonviolence: Book of Exalted Deeds.
Mindsight: Lords of Madness. (Which reminds me, how are you fulfilling that prerequisite for this again?)

Beguilers get charm person, so I'm saying mindsight if and only if you dip into mindbender (which is a good idea because it sets your advanced learnings at a higher level).

So let me get this straight. Outside of core (counting PHB2, where you get the class from in the first place), you're using three other books as your source for Beguiler power, one of which has some potentially restrictive RP components (depending on how your DM views exaltedness). All of which the Sorcerer can utilize himself, none of which require Beguiler-specific class features.

Don't misrepresent (straw man) me.  These are the feats a beguiler would actually care about, which supports my argument that a beguiler taking arcane disciple is not a big cost (because the cost is only what you'd be taking instead).

A beguiler seriously only needs 3 books max for feats.  That's fucking small compared to what people have been saying about sorcerers.  And a core+PH2 comparison leaves the beguiler fuck tons better than the sorcerer.

Seriously, having all the feats you'd ever care about in only three other splats is a good thing.

I'd say this falls under the caveat that proper optimization can bring a class up a tier, and not under the class's own merit.

The last beguiler I played had a starting wisdom of 15 (14 base for will saves, 1 aging).  19 is not a big deal.  Especially since with "everything goes" wish economy comes into play.

It is if we're talking about leaving the wish economy out of this (in which case you either fork over the cash or dedicate practically all your level increases to it). Otherwise we might as well ignore everything regarding wealth by level, seeing as everyone gets access to infinite money/wishes as soon as they have 8.400 GP, except perhaps for neutral characters.

Dude, ninth level spells don't come into play til level 18.  Let's look at WBL

Level 1-10: He has a wisdom of 15.
Level 12: Needs +1 wis.  4k gp out of 88k isn't a big investment.
Level 14: needs +2 to wis.  4k out of 150 k isn't a big investment.
Level 16: needs +3 to wis.  16k out of 260k isn't a big investment.
Level 18: needs +4 to wis.  16k out of 440k isn't a big investment.

Really, 19 wis by level 18 isn't a big deal.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Why exactly do you need a 14 wis for will saves?  Will is your good save.  

Shouldn't you be spending those points on something useful, like dex or con?

[The Lurker]

Why exactly do you need a 14 int for will saves?  Will is your good save. 

Shouldn't you be spending those points on something useful, like dex or con?

Having good saves is just good.  I mean, on 25 PB it'd go like this:
16 int (10 points)
14 wis (6 points)
13 con (5 points)
12 dex (4 points)
8 in cha, and str

we'll be a grey elf (because +int is sexy on beguilers)
We'll also age one category (because int is sexy)

I can drop the wisdom by one and still not really be caring too much about WBL.  If I have higher PB, I'll put more into int.

[Kuroimaken]

So, let me repost my list of beguiler feats:
Arcane Disciple
Improved Init
Nymph's Kiss
Sculpt Spell
Vow of Nonviolence
Mindsight

Runner ups: Spell focus

It's still a damn short list, and vow of nonviolence has such massive RP hang ups that it's too much of a hassle to deal with in most games (but very sexy in the ones that can).

Are you assuming taking a level of Mindbender for Mindsight, or is that unnecessary?  If so, I think there's a non-good alignment requirement, which means you're going to be choosing between Mindsight or the Exalted feats.  The alignment restriction effectively makes them mutually exclusive.  This actually shortens your feat list into two alignment-based lists, freeing up more feats for Arcane Disciple.

Yes, I'm saying with the mindbender dip.  I'm not saying all at once.  I'm saying those are the feats you'll give a damn about at all on a beguiler.

@Lurker: Let me take a quick look off your feats list.

Let's take a quick moment to remember where each of them is from.

Arcane Disciple: Complete Divine.
Improved Init, Spell Focus: Core
Nymph's Kiss, Vow of Nonviolence: Book of Exalted Deeds.
Mindsight: Lords of Madness. (Which reminds me, how are you fulfilling that prerequisite for this again?)

Beguilers get charm person, so I'm saying mindsight if and only if you dip into mindbender (which is a good idea because it sets your advanced learnings at a higher level).

So let me get this straight. Outside of core (counting PHB2, where you get the class from in the first place), you're using three other books as your source for Beguiler power, one of which has some potentially restrictive RP components (depending on how your DM views exaltedness). All of which the Sorcerer can utilize himself, none of which require Beguiler-specific class features.

Don't misrepresent (straw man) me.  These are the feats a beguiler would actually care about, which supports my argument that a beguiler taking arcane disciple is not a big cost (because the cost is only what you'd be taking instead).

A beguiler seriously only needs 3 books max for feats.  That's fucking small compared to what people have been saying about sorcerers.  And a core+PH2 comparison leaves the beguiler fuck tons better than the sorcerer.

Seriously, having all the feats you'd ever care about in only three other splats is a good thing.

I'd say this falls under the caveat that proper optimization can bring a class up a tier, and not under the class's own merit.

The last beguiler I played had a starting wisdom of 15 (14 base for will saves, 1 aging).  19 is not a big deal.  Especially since with "everything goes" wish economy comes into play.

It is if we're talking about leaving the wish economy out of this (in which case you either fork over the cash or dedicate practically all your level increases to it). Otherwise we might as well ignore everything regarding wealth by level, seeing as everyone gets access to infinite money/wishes as soon as they have 8.400 GP, except perhaps for neutral characters.

Dude, ninth level spells don't come into play til level 18.  Let's look at WBL

Level 1-10: He has a wisdom of 15.
Level 12: Needs +1 wis.  4k gp out of 88k isn't a big investment.
Level 14: needs +2 to wis.  4k out of 150 k isn't a big investment.
Level 16: needs +3 to wis.  16k out of 260k isn't a big investment.
Level 18: needs +4 to wis.  16k out of 440k isn't a big investment.

Really, 19 wis by level 18 isn't a big deal.

See, I always gleaned that 'having an ability score of X' meant having it permanently, not having an item to make up for what you lack. Tying a resource as important as spell slots to an item is a pretty hefty bargain if you ask me.

Also, there was no intent to misrepresent or strawman you. This is what I understood from your posts. If I got you wrong, then I need clarification, right? That's what I put the 'so let me get this straight' in the beginning of the post for, it wasn't an attempt at sarcasm or placing myself in a higher level than you.

[ninjarabbit]

Why exactly do you need a 14 int for will saves?  Will is your good save. 

Shouldn't you be spending those points on something useful, like dex or con?

Having good saves is just good.  I mean, on 25 PB it'd go like this:
16 int (10 points)
14 wis (6 points)
13 con (5 points)
12 dex (4 points)
8 in cha, and str

we'll be a grey elf (because +int is sexy on beguilers)
We'll also age one category (because int is sexy)

I can drop the wisdom by one and still not really be caring too much about WBL.  If I have higher PB, I'll put more into int.

Yuck, at level 1 that middle aged grey elf beguiler is only going to have 6 hit points (13 con -2 for elf and -1 for middle aged = 10 con) and an AC of only 14 (+3 for studded leather armor, only +1 for dex). Low level survivability is going to be a major concern.

[The Lurker]

See, I always gleaned that 'having an ability score of X' meant having it permanently, not having an item to make up for what you lack. Tying a resource as important as spell slots to an item is a pretty hefty bargain if you ask me.

Well, the that's how the rules work.  You can totally qualify for stuff with items.  Granted, it's not always a great idea, but you can.

In this case, you're not even using the item until level 12.  At that point, a chained supress magic screws everybody and not just the beguiler.

Also, there was no intent to misrepresent or strawman you. This is what I understood from your posts. If I got you wrong, then I need clarification, right? That's what I put the 'so let me get this straight' in the beginning of the post for, it wasn't an attempt at sarcasm or placing myself in a higher level than you.

Fair enough.

Yuck, at level 1 that middle aged grey elf beguiler is only going to have 6 hit points (13 con -2 for elf and -1 for middle aged = 10 con) and an AC of only 14 (+3 for studded leather armor, only +1 for dex). Low level survivability is going to be a major concern.

A level 1 wizard has six hit points too and only 12 AC.  And the beguiler is a good candidate for necropolitan.

[RobbyPants]

Playing from first level or not, I'd put a higher priority on Con.  You already have a good Will save, so a 10-12 is good enough.  I can agree that Will is important, but so is Fort, and a good Con boosts that and HP.  I'd switch the Wis and Con around, but even that (a base of 13) can get you a 19 with a +6 stat boosting item.

[JaronK]

And of course, a +6 item does still cost quite a bit.  Requiring MAD really does hurt a bit.  I know the Beguilers I've seen have all dumped Will unless they were going for SCM (which needs Wis 13 for Earth Sense).  Int, Con, and Dex were the priorities, in that order. 

JaronK

[The Lurker]

Playing from first level or not, I'd put a higher priority on Con.  You already have a good Will save, so a 10-12 is good enough.  I can agree that Will is important, but so is Fort, and a good Con boosts that and HP.  I'd switch the Wis and Con around, but even that (a base of 13) can get you a 19 with a +6 stat boosting item.

Well, if I was playing from first level, I probably wouldn't put as much into wis.  13 Wis at first level will cover me for the first seven levels of play.  And really, there's a good chance of having the character killed off or retired in that time.

Starting higher level, I'd put accordingly more into wisdom.  Do you agree with my sentiment that wisdom for arcane disciple is not a big deal for beguilers?  That's really all we need to agree on.  It either is or isn't a big deal.

And of course, a +6 item does still cost quite a bit.  Requiring MAD really does hurt a bit.  I know the Beguilers I've seen have all dumped Will unless they were going for SCM (which needs Wis 13 for Earth Sense).  Int, Con, and Dex were the priorities, in that order.  

JaronK

So, you think beguilers are dimensional because the beguilers you've played with were built at the lowest possible power level, while the sorcerers you've played with are the highest?  That clears things up.

[RobbyPants]

Starting higher level, I'd put accordingly more into wisdom.  Do you agree with my sentiment that wisdom for arcane disciple is not a big deal for beguilers?  That's really all we need to agree on.  It either is or isn't a big deal.

A 19 Wis by 18th level?  I don't see that as a big deal.  I don't see starting with a 13+ at first level as hard to obtain or unrealistic, and by 18th level, a 36K item isn't that hard to come by either.

I was actually agreeing with you in that last sentance of my last post.  I was saying that even if I switch the Con and Wis around, it's still doable with a single item by 18th level.  Hell, you don't even have to boost it until 8th level.

[JaronK]

So, you think beguilers are dimensional because the beguilers you've played with were built at the lowest possible power level, while the sorcerers you've played with are the highest?  That clears things up.

No, I didn't say that.  In fact, when I said they tended to dump Wisdom unless they were going SCM, that should have clued you in to the fact that I've seen SCM Beguilers, which are not the lowest optimization level.  Instead I said they tended to dump Wisdom and gain extra spells via PrC Bard and Sandshaper, enabling them to avoid the MAD issues of your build.  Heck, I'm playing with a Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Beguiler right now who's using Soveriegn Archtypes... and yeah, she dumped Wis (though with a Dragonwrought Kobold, even a dumped Wis stat ended up at 10).

Really, avoid the strawmen okay?  Can you see the difference between "A Beguiler can get access to a couple broken spells, but doing so requires a feat and MAD, plus you only get one or two really good spells that way, and if you don't have access to magic marts or item creation the MAD thing will be a serious issue" and "A Sorcerer can get access to a ton of broken spells by choosing them when he levels up, and can make his own magic items too?"

JaronK

[TheWordSlinger]

How you can consistently ignore the fact that Sorcerers at level 8 pick one 4th level spell only, and that they can choose Animate Dead as their one makes them better than Beguilers makes no sense. Like their aren't six domains out there that grant Animate Dead, most at lower levels. I could take my Rune Portal Oracle Beguiler or Vecna and add some Undead Domain and add making undead to the list of things he does better than a Sorcerer. Because once again, Animate Undead is a save DC independent spell that Beguilers have easier access to that Sorcerers. And a Beguiler can still use 4th level slots for Confusion/FoM/Dimension Door/Solid Fog. Compared to a Sorcerer who at level 8 just metamagics third level spells in that slot because he wasted his single choice on Animate Dead.

Please turn to page 79 in Complete Divine...

Choose a deity, and then select a domain available to clerics
of that deity. You can learn to cast the spells associated with
that domain as arcane spells.

Then on page 109 we see that Vecna's Domains are Evil, Knowledge, Magic, and Madness. And before you mention Boccob, his are KNowledge, Magic, Mind, Oracle, and Trickery.
Also, you can't take take Arcane Disciple at frst level as a Beguiler, no knowledge (Religion) as a class skill.

[Kaelik]

Please turn to page 79 in Complete Divine...

Choose a deity, and then select a domain available to clerics
of that deity. You can learn to cast the spells associated with
that domain as arcane spells.

Then on page 109 we see that Vecna's Domains are Evil, Knowledge, Magic, and Madness. And before you mention Boccob, his are KNowledge, Magic, Mind, Oracle, and Trickery.
Also, you can't take take Arcane Disciple at frst level as a Beguiler, no knowledge (Religion) as a class skill.

So it is your contention that the Rune domain doesn't exist, and that the God of Secrets Lies and Necromancy does not have the Oracle, Rune or Necromancy domains? Really. Going to go ahead and laugh at that.

Meanwhile, not every game actually travels the planes, or even has them.  Do you really always play in Greyhawk?  Really?  And does your Rogue always have a Wizard to take them where ever they want?  Mine rarely has had such luxuries.  I notice a few people have this funny idea that having UMD on your class skill list means the DM has to give you whatever gear you want, even custom gear, at every level.  Maybe you and the guy that made that Monk guide can get together and discuss how awesome and game breaking Monks are when they get custom gear too.  Weren't you just whining that I always assume the game is level 13+, and now you're saying Beguilers are awesome because they can travel to a planar metropolis to buy custom magic items?  What the heck level are you thinking of here?  Do you really believe every game lets you port off to a planar metropolis whenever you want... especially one where the Arcane side is being handled by a Rogue or Beguiler?  Sure, with a Sorc in the party you could teleport over and back...

Thank you for your ridiculous and meaningless Strawman. Every city of every size has a magic mart of varying size, and before level 9 (the level you get to go to Planar Metropoli) A reguilar Metrolpolis or even city or even a town sits around, which is more than enough to buy a Candle of Invocation. Did you miss the part where the Beguiler has Teleport before the Sorcerer again? Because you still aren't paying attention.

You keep complaining about all power levels, but you are ignoring the fact that Beguilers can use a Candle of Invocation to become pun pun as easily as Sorcerers. So clearly at any level of power less than Pun Pun, the Beguiler can just become pun pun and hold back.

Or you know, you could stop using cheese as your sole qualification for Tiers. But since you've already admitted that cheese is your sole criterion for the Tier system, it would apparently dissolve into dust if you used it to measure real power.

Meanwhile, you think that a level 8 Sorcerer taking Animate Dead is the only reason they're strong?  At that level they can also have Explosive Runes, Shrink Item, Alter Self, Glitterdust, Magecraft, Wings of Cover, and so on, maybe getting Spectral Hand and Shivering Touch next level so they can instant kill any Dragon that crosses their path.  Why get an attack spell at that level... unless you already had the necessary Runestaff?  Though I admit taking Polymorph might be a better idea.  And there's always Wings of Flurry.

So your level 8 Sorcerer does zero damage, because he doesn't have dispel magic, but is building a really big bomb for later when he eventually realizes he needs it, does 20d6 damage if only he could fly, Has the spellcasting of a Sorcerer of higher level, Glitterdust, fakes being an Int based Caster, and blocks shit. So. Basically just Glitterdust that actually helps you fight anything. Yeah, you don't seem any better than a Beguiler. In fact, much worse.

A Beguiler on the other hand has a much smaller bomb he can actually use, Glitterdust, Is an Int based Caster, and has Greater Mirror Image to block shit, and Solid Fog and Confusion to win D&D. Oh yeah, and has had Animate dead for 2 levels already.

[Dan2]

I just finished surgery on this thread.  I cut out posts that were contributing to the off-topic arguing, unfortunately some of them were also contributing.
Lets keep it on-topic and civil.  We want constructive material instead of off-topic arguing and flaming, not constructive material with off-topic arguing and flaming.

[juton]

I love the Beguiler, I really do. It's an awesome class with a lot of potential. What can it do again that a Sorcerer can't?

[Braithwaite]

I think that Lurker is right.

To put a character in a tier, they only have to be stronger than the weakest class in the tier.

Minimal work beguiler v. minimal work favored soul.
The favored soul is probably a weak beatstick or a healbot. Beguiler has skillmonkey, crowd control, save or dies. At high level, the favored soul at minimal optimization isn't picking the best spells. beguiler looks at his minimal spell list and goes, hmm, "timestop and power word kill look good." Advantage: beguiler

Some optimization beguiler v. favored soul.
Beguiler + Arcane Disciple still doesn't have any more MAD issues than favored soul. They each have 1 casting stat + wisdom of 13-19 depending on level. Favored soul has picked up turn attempts with a PrC or a dip, so he can DMM, so now he is a STRONG beatstick, with some good variety in his spellbook for things he doesn't want to melee. Beguiler takes Animal and Water domain (he can do better, but these are core, and available to same deity). He now has a little more divination, some utility spells, some damage spells for things that are mind immune, some good summons, including Unicorn, and shapechange. Favored soul can match these tricks, but for each domain spell he takes, he is giving up another spell, while beguiler gives up nothing. Beguiler is still a top skillmonkey, with as many GOOD spells on his list at every level as the Favored Soul has spells known.  Advantage, I don't know. DMM is very strong, and the favored soul has a bit more flexibility, but the Beguiler has SO many more spells to chose from in a given day, and the cleric list isn't generally as strong as the wizard spells the Beguiler is pulling.

Top Optimization.
Beguiler has now expanded his spell list significantly with PRCs. He has searched splatbooks for the best advanced learning spells. Favored soul has also added some tasty domains, maybe with contemplative and sacred exorcist for turning, so he can DMM persist his Shapechange. But he is still hamstrung in his gamebreakitude by his # of spells known. For example, at 20 he only knows 4 9th level spells. Beguiler has more than 4 good 9th level spells from his base list, including Foresight and Time Stop, he has picked whichever deity in his game world gives the 2 best spell lists for arcane disciple, so he probably chose Wish, Shapechange, or Gate assuming that he couldn't find anyone that gave more than one of those, + another cherry picked L9 spell from advanced learning. It probably no longer matters, but he is still a top skillmonkey. With his UMD he can use any magic item that the party finds with no chance of failure. Beguiler has better PRCs available, like Shadowcraft Mage, which opens up a world of broken that I don't know how the Favored Soul matches. I think the advantage goes back to beguiler here.

To put it simply, if someone came up to you and said "What is the stronger class, Favored Soul or Beguiler?" do you really mean with a straight face that you would immediately answer "Favored Soul"? At worst the two seem about equal, overall I would say that Beguiler blows FS away.

[The Lurker]

I love the Beguiler, I really do. It's an awesome class with a lot of potential. What can it do again that a Sorcerer can't?

Have multiple spells known at the top level of casting?  Get many more skill points and trapfinding?  Get utility at your top level without having zero top level combat spells?

[Kuroimaken]

I think that Lurker is right.

To put a character in a tier, they only have to be stronger than the weakest class in the tier.

Minimal work beguiler v. minimal work favored soul.
The favored soul is probably a weak beatstick or a healbot. Beguiler has skillmonkey, crowd control, save or dies. At high level, the favored soul at minimal optimization isn't picking the best spells. beguiler looks at his minimal spell list and goes, hmm, "timestop and power word kill look good." Advantage: beguiler

Some optimization beguiler v. favored soul.
Beguiler + Arcane Disciple still doesn't have any more MAD issues than favored soul. They each have 1 casting stat + wisdom of 13-19 depending on level. Favored soul has picked up turn attempts with a PrC or a dip, so he can DMM, so now he is a STRONG beatstick, with some good variety in his spellbook for things he doesn't want to melee. Beguiler takes Animal and Water domain (he can do better, but these are core, and available to same deity). He now has a little more divination, some utility spells, some damage spells for things that are mind immune, some good summons, including Unicorn, and shapechange. Favored soul can match these tricks, but for each domain spell he takes, he is giving up another spell, while beguiler gives up nothing. Beguiler is still a top skillmonkey, with as many GOOD spells on his list at every level as the Favored Soul has spells known.  Advantage, I don't know. DMM is very strong, and the favored soul has a bit more flexibility, but the Beguiler has SO many more spells to chose from in a given day, and the cleric list isn't generally as strong as the wizard spells the Beguiler is pulling.

Top Optimization.
Beguiler has now expanded his spell list significantly with PRCs. He has searched splatbooks for the best advanced learning spells. Favored soul has also added some tasty domains, maybe with contemplative and sacred exorcist for turning, so he can DMM persist his Shapechange. But he is still hamstrung in his gamebreakitude by his # of spells known. For example, at 20 he only knows 4 9th level spells. Beguiler has more than 4 good 9th level spells from his base list, including Foresight and Time Stop, he has picked whichever deity in his game world gives the 2 best spell lists for arcane disciple, so he probably chose Wish, Shapechange, or Gate assuming that he couldn't find anyone that gave more than one of those, + another cherry picked L9 spell from advanced learning. It probably no longer matters, but he is still a top skillmonkey. With his UMD he can use any magic item that the party finds with no chance of failure. Beguiler has better PRCs available, like Shadowcraft Mage, which opens up a world of broken that I don't know how the Favored Soul matches. I think the advantage goes back to beguiler here.

To put it simply, if someone came up to you and said "What is the stronger class, Favored Soul or Beguiler?" do you really mean with a straight face that you would immediately answer "Favored Soul"? At worst the two seem about equal, overall I would say that Beguiler blows FS away.

Putting a bit of that into perspective... The favored soul is also a spontaneous caster, which means he has access to Versatile Spellcaster. Thus, he can enter a PrC that gives him turning relatively early. He also can pick from the cleric list, but he doesn't NEED everything on that list. Favored Soul is weaker than a Cleric because he needs to jump through more loops to get almost everything a cleric gets, but he's not behind the beguiler because he still gets to access most of the good stuff that makes a cleric awesome, whereas the beguiler is restricted forever by his spell list.

[The Lurker]

Putting a bit of that into perspective... The favored soul is also a spontaneous caster, which means he has access to Versatile Spellcaster. Thus, he can enter a PrC that gives him turning relatively early. He also can pick from the cleric list, but he doesn't NEED everything on that list. Favored Soul is weaker than a Cleric because he needs to jump through more loops to get almost everything a cleric gets, but he's not behind the beguiler because he still gets to access most of the good stuff that makes a cleric awesome, whereas the beguiler is restricted forever by his spell list.

So, you would argue that having divine power, freedom of movement, and deathward is better than having charm monster, crushing despair, freedom of movement, greater invisibility, greater mirror image, locate creature, mass whelm, phantom battle, rainbow pattern, and solid fog?

Is this correct?  Divine power and deathward together are more potent than charm monster, crushing despair, greater invisibility, greater mirror image, locate creature, mass whelm, phantom battle, rainbow pattern, and solid fog?

And no, I didn't deliberately select a beguiler spell.  Freedom of movement is just one of the top cleric spells for level 4.