Tier System for Classes

[lans]

If it weren't for the idiotic cap on their fast healing ability, they could heal way better than a healer. Their "pseudo lay on hands" isn't THAT bad either.

Plus decent hit dice and decent saves make for nice survivability. They try to do what a Bard does, but less effectively. That's a Tier 4 to me.

Marshal is tier 4 so you might be right. Granted that class gets higher bonuses to a bunch of things and can have a minor aura and major at the same time. So maybe a low tier 4 then

[Suzerain]

One question - and I know he doesn't have a familiar - but would you rank the Lightning Warrior in tier 1 or in tier 0?

Tier 0 comes right with gamebreaking stuff; Dweomerkeeper, Planar Shepherd, Undead Tainted Scholar, ... Lightning Warrior really doesn't have more gamebreaking capability than the Wizard. His great stats put him above the others in that tier, but depending on how many spells the Archivist has access to, I guess Archivist would win out...

Does his ability to cast all his spells spontaneously put him into a whole other tier than Wizard, Archivist or Erudite?

[The_Mad_Linguist]

There's also the whole "unlimited spells known" thing. 

[Suzerain]

Right. I misremembered. He doesn't even cast spontaneously. He just doesn't spend money on scribing into his spell book. That's up a tier? So the secret page trick is extremely broken? He still has to aquire the scrolls and all... I just don't see it. If it is Lightning Warrior or Planar Sphepherd, what would you pick (assuming the latter is used to snatch the wish SLA)?

[Akalsaris]

Depends on what the party needs more, but for a 1-20 game I lean towards Lightning Warrior, since you start with ridiculously more HPs than the Planar Shepherd and just rock out in every way except without a familiar.

If you're starting at 18+ or whatever, I guess Planar Shepherd is slightly better on the T1 to T0 scale, but I'd still want to play the Lightning Warrior

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Right. I misremembered. He doesn't even cast spontaneously. He just doesn't spend money on scribing into his spell book. That's up a tier? So the secret page trick is extremely broken? He still has to aquire the scrolls and all... I just don't see it. If it is Lightning Warrior or Planar Sphepherd, what would you pick (assuming the latter is used to snatch the wish SLA)?

He just has to see it (oh, Mr. bookstore shopkeeper, I don't think I'll be purchasing anything after all).  I believe that he can learn spells above his level as well.

[lans]

Why are truenamers considered broken and not just tier 5 or 6? I seems like unless your fighting creatures with CR+3 or so from it, then it should be fine with a reasonable amount of focus on truenaming and the true speak amulet as soon as you can find it.

[Bozwevial]

Why are truenamers considered broken and not just tier 5 or 6? I seems like unless your fighting creatures with CR+3 or so from it, then it should be fine with a reasonable amount of focus on truenaming and the true speak amulet as soon as you can find it.

Well, it's not that the DCs are absurdly high. They just get that way very quickly. Unless you put an absurd emphasis on Truenaming, you're going to become useless very rapidly indeed.

[lans]

Why are truenamers considered broken and not just tier 5 or 6? I seems like unless your fighting creatures with CR+3 or so from it, then it should be fine with a reasonable amount of focus on truenaming and the true speak amulet as soon as you can find it.

Well, it's not that the DCs are absurdly high. They just get that way very quickly. Unless you put an absurd emphasis on Truenaming, you're going to become useless very rapidly indeed.

I'm not too sure on that. Depending on what you mean by an absurd emphasis on true naming. I will assume that it involves con damage for 1/2 level bonus and the other elder evil stuff as well as item familiar and custum items. As well as taking Marshall and exemplar.

 At first level it true speak should be about 12(4 ranks, 3 focus, 2 masterwork item, 3 intelligence) So it needs a 5 or higher to affect CR 1s and a 3 for CR 1/2s I guess. I figure it will have a high priority on the true speak item so it should have a +5 one at 3 and the +10 at 5. So at level 3 its true speak is 19 and the DC for CR 3s is 21 so a good shot at 3 uses per utterance. After which it will need to get higher than an eight.
At 5 its true name skill should be 26 and the Dcs for CR 5 should be 25 so it needs to roll a 1 on the second shot. At 7 and 8 it auto succeeds. At 9, 10, it should have gotten a +4 item of intelligence by then it will still need to roll ones.  It will need a 2 at eleven and a 3 at twelve. At thirteen it should have gotten a +6 headband  so it should still be 3.  It will need a 4 at 14, and 5 at fifteen. By level 16 it should have a luck stone and its intelligence mod should go up by one so it should be a 4. At levels 17 and 18 it will be a 5 and 6. At 19 it should get a +5 book of intelligence so 5 and at 20 another point of intelligence mod so still 5. I'll assume it breaks down in epic

That is assuming its targeting an equal CR opponent and not its weapon or earing or the ground which is DC 25. Unless its magical ground in which case your probably standing on a trap and should move.

Against higher CR monsters I would use Skill shards or something.

[ninjarabbit]

If it weren't for the idiotic cap on their fast healing ability, they could heal way better than a healer. Their "pseudo lay on hands" isn't THAT bad either.

Plus decent hit dice and decent saves make for nice survivability. They try to do what a Bard does, but less effectively. That's a Tier 4 to me.

Marshal is tier 4 so you might be right. Granted that class gets higher bonuses to a bunch of things and can have a minor aura and major at the same time. So maybe a low tier 4 then

Basically the dragon shaman is a step below the marshal. So if a marshall is a Tier 4 then a dragon shaman is a Tier 5.

[JaronK]

I would guess still Tier 4 (you can be worse and still be in the same tier, as long as your general power level is pretty similar) but it might be Tier 5.  I don't really know the class well enough to say, though.

JaronK

[DerWille]

Where does the forgotten middle child of Tome of Magic, the Shadowcaster, fall on the tier listing? They suffer from needing two different casting stats, Intelligence and Charisma, use a strange casting that morphs their mysteries from arcane spells, to spell like abilities, to supernatural abilities. As the spells evolve, you may cast them more often, so a spell that is like an arcane spell can only be used once a day, a spell like ability twice, and a supernatural ability three times a day.

 It's like a wizard and a warlock had an "accident" then left this poor thing on the Tome of Magic's doorstep.

[Bozwevial]

Why are truenamers considered broken and not just tier 5 or 6? I seems like unless your fighting creatures with CR+3 or so from it, then it should be fine with a reasonable amount of focus on truenaming and the true speak amulet as soon as you can find it.

Well, it's not that the DCs are absurdly high. They just get that way very quickly. Unless you put an absurd emphasis on Truenaming, you're going to become useless very rapidly indeed.

I'm not too sure on that. Depending on what you mean by an absurd emphasis on true naming. I will assume that it involves con damage for 1/2 level bonus and the other elder evil stuff as well as item familiar and custum items. As well as taking Marshall and exemplar.

 At first level it true speak should be about 12(4 ranks, 3 focus, 2 masterwork item, 3 intelligence) So it needs a 5 or higher to affect CR 1s and a 3 for CR 1/2s I guess. I figure it will have a high priority on the true speak item so it should have a +5 one at 3 and the +10 at 5. So at level 3 its true speak is 19 and the DC for CR 3s is 21 so a good shot at 3 uses per utterance. After which it will need to get higher than an eight.
At 5 its true name skill should be 26 and the Dcs for CR 5 should be 25 so it needs to roll a 1 on the second shot. At 7 and 8 it auto succeeds. At 9, 10, it should have gotten a +4 item of intelligence by then it will still need to roll ones.  It will need a 2 at eleven and a 3 at twelve. At thirteen it should have gotten a +6 headband  so it should still be 3.  It will need a 4 at 14, and 5 at fifteen. By level 16 it should have a luck stone and its intelligence mod should go up by one so it should be a 4. At levels 17 and 18 it will be a 5 and 6. At 19 it should get a +5 book of intelligence so 5 and at 20 another point of intelligence mod so still 5. I'll assume it breaks down in epic

That is assuming its targeting an equal CR opponent and not its weapon or earing or the ground which is DC 25. Unless its magical ground in which case your probably standing on a trap and should move.

Against higher CR monsters I would use Skill shards or something.

Now do that often enough in one day to stay effective and keep up with the rest of the party, keeping in mind that the DC will keep rising.

See the problem here?

[JaronK]

I'm not sure on the Shadowcaster, as I haven't seen it played, but I suspect somewhere around T4.

As for Truenamers, the issue is that their power level varies drastically with optimization, far more than most classes.  As such, it's impossible to give a relative power standing without knowing the optimization level.  With an Item Familiar and full access to any magic item you need, plus appropriate dips, you can spam your powers all day long and be roughly on par with a Warlock.  Without heavy optimization however, you can't even effect anyone at your CR (so, not your own party) and you're basically a Commoner.  Other classes scale at least somewhat the same with optimization, but the Truenamer just doesn't, so I can't place it.

JaronK

[lans]

I'm not sure on the Shadowcaster, as I haven't seen it played, but I suspect somewhere around T4.

I put it at tier 3, maybe 4. It can have a decent breadth of abilities, like dominate, ability damage, summoning, gets level equivalent shadow evocations. an average timestop, Some battle field control. The one problem with it is that it tends to lack staying power. Like if a wizard had no buffs and had to be dragged through 8 encounters is what shadow casters look like after two or three for the first 7 levels. At 6th level it has 6 spells before its down to 0th level abilities. At 7th it goes up to 13 and it gets  a smidge of staying power. At 13 it should be fine with 31 spells.

As for Truenamers, the issue is that their power level varies drastically with optimization, far more than most classes.  As such, it's impossible to give a relative power standing without knowing the optimization level.  With an Item Familiar and full access to any magic item you need, plus appropriate dips, you can spam your powers all day long and be roughly on par with a Warlock.  Without heavy optimization however, you can't even effect anyone at your CR (so, not your own party) and you're basically a Commoner.  Other classes scale at least somewhat the same with optimization, but the Truenamer just doesn't, so I can't place it.

JaronK

You can easily put it on at two or three spots or find reasonable level of optimization and go with that.

[lans]

Why are truenamers considered broken and not just tier 5 or 6? I seems like unless your fighting creatures with CR+3 or so from it, then it should be fine with a reasonable amount of focus on truenaming and the true speak amulet as soon as you can find it.

Well, it's not that the DCs are absurdly high. They just get that way very quickly. Unless you put an absurd emphasis on Truenaming, you're going to become useless very rapidly indeed.

I'm not too sure on that. Depending on what you mean by an absurd emphasis on true naming. I will assume that it involves con damage for 1/2 level bonus and the other elder evil stuff as well as item familiar and custum items. As well as taking Marshall and exemplar.

 At first level it true speak should be about 12(4 ranks, 3 focus, 2 masterwork item, 3 intelligence) So it needs a 5 or higher to affect CR 1s and a 3 for CR 1/2s I guess. I figure it will have a high priority on the true speak item so it should have a +5 one at 3 and the +10 at 5. So at level 3 its true speak is 19 and the DC for CR 3s is 21 so a good shot at 3 uses per utterance. After which it will need to get higher than an eight.
At 5 its true name skill should be 26 and the Dcs for CR 5 should be 25 so it needs to roll a 1 on the second shot. At 7 and 8 it auto succeeds. At 9, 10, it should have gotten a +4 item of intelligence by then it will still need to roll ones.  It will need a 2 at eleven and a 3 at twelve. At thirteen it should have gotten a +6 headband  so it should still be 3.  It will need a 4 at 14, and 5 at fifteen. By level 16 it should have a luck stone and its intelligence mod should go up by one so it should be a 4. At levels 17 and 18 it will be a 5 and 6. At 19 it should get a +5 book of intelligence so 5 and at 20 another point of intelligence mod so still 5. I'll assume it breaks down in epic

That is assuming its targeting an equal CR opponent and not its weapon or earing or the ground which is DC 25. Unless its magical ground in which case your probably standing on a trap and should move.

Against higher CR monsters I would use Skill shards or something.

Now do that often enough in one day to stay effective and keep up with the rest of the party, keeping in mind that the DC will keep rising.

See the problem here?

It will have 12 utteranaces by level 10 if it can do 36ish times total with rolls of1,3,5 on them if its targeting equal CR opponents. If  an utterance can target the ground then it should be able to do that one 5 times before needing to roll a one*. At level 20 its higher base, but it also has twice as much to start with.
How many spells does the adept get again? Or the mage right?

* Thats been errated, so the DC is 5 higher than what I though it was at this level. Still 5 lower then the rest though.


Also if a truenamer is self buffing the number is 4 lower as he gets a +4  bonus from being a truenamer when saying his own name, and another +2 because every body gets a +4 circumstance bonus when saying their own truename.

With a more optimal build the check should be at least 5 more, before elder evils and item familiar. With item familiar everything is going to be autoquickened, and with custom item of truespeak they are going to ignore spell resistance, and be auto extended empowered.

[Bozwevial]

See, what you have here is the usage of Elder Evils, a custom item to increase Truespeech checks (when there is already an item for that exact purpose, which will probably make a DM leery), and an item familiar just to bring the class up to a playable level.

At 20th level, for instance, the DC for an utterance is 55. Let's take Tommy Truenamer, who is played by someone we'll assume to be average at optimization. He has 23 ranks, Skill Focus, a base 16 Intelligence which he's bumped up to 20 while leveling up, a +6 headband of intellect, and the standard issue greater amulet of the silver tongue. That's 23 (ranks)+3(Skill Focus)+8(Intelligence)+10(amulet)=a +44 modifier to Truespeech checks. You need to roll an 11 or higher to affect your target the first time. That's a 50% chance of affecting your target. The first time you use your primary class feature for the day. Even if we're nice and give him a masterwork tool, one successful utterance later (60% chance of that, by the way), you're back to what is essentially a coin flip. And that's before saves. Or spell resistance. (You can automatically overcome spell resistance, yes--at the cost of a higher DC.)

Tell me, does a wizard have to spend a feat, 23 skill points, all his ability score boosts, and several magic items to have a 50% chance of casting a spell successfully? To have a 50% chance of casting a spell successfully before any spell resistance or saves are taken into account? Tommy Truenamer thinks he's got a crazy Truespeech skill, up until he actually tries to be competitive with the rest of the party against balors. And pit fiends. And tarrasques. And other difficulties.

Also, you mention attaining a +5 amulet at level 3 and a +10 at level 5. At level 3, it's doable. You'll be left with only 200 gold to your name, but it's doable--assuming you've accumulated all that wealth over time and then spent it, as opposed to creating a 3rd level Truenamer and then disregarding the DMG's strong suggestion that you not spend more than X% of your total wealth on one item.

At level 5, your WBL is 9,000 gp. And the +10 amulet of the silver tongue?

IT'S OVER 9,000! 10,000 gp, to be precise.

[lans]

See, what you have here is the usage of Elder Evils, a custom item to increase Truespeech checks (when there is already an item for that exact purpose, which will probably make a DM leery), and an item familiar just to bring the class up to a playable level.

You only need one of those, all of them will have the warlock or adept crying in the corner. Well maybe not the adept.

At 20th level, for instance, the DC for an utterance is 55. Let's take Tommy Truenamer, who is played by someone we'll assume to be average at optimization. He has 23 ranks, Skill Focus, a base 16 Intelligence which he's bumped up to 20 while leveling up, a +6 headband of intellect, and the standard issue greater amulet of the silver tongue. That's 23 (ranks)+3(Skill Focus)+8(Intelligence)+10(amulet)=a +44 modifier to Truespeech checks. You need to roll an 11 or higher to affect your target the first time. That's a 50% chance of affecting your target.

50% shot is what the designers were shooting at, for some reason or another, so that means the class works as it was designed with fairly minimal effort. With that said, targeting your self will be at 5 or higher the first time.  Gate is at 45, so you need to roll one or higher. Solid Fog is 40, and tons of magic armor and weapons have caster levels that are fairly low. +5 weapons are CL 15 I believe.

 The first time you use your primary class feature for the day. Even if we're nice and give him a masterwork tool, one successful utterance later (60% chance of that, by the way), you're back to what is essentially a coin flip. And that's before saves. Or spell resistance. (You can automatically overcome spell resistance, yes--at the cost of a higher DC.)

This is at level 20 when it gets gate, with the master work tool it gets 2 gates a day as a spell like ability, which doesn't cost experience, after which it will need to roll two higher than one for each additional gate it casts. Even at 50/50 I would say that Gate is worth it. It also has 5 uses of solid fog, or 10 uses of a burst trip effect. At 15 it should be succeeding on 3s if it has a luck stone. There is also the option of a self buff of +5 for 5 rounds and skill shards for when it faces a creature of a higher CR.

Tell me, does a wizard have to spend a feat, 23 skill points, all his ability score boosts, and several magic items to have a 50% chance of casting a spell successfully? To have a 50% chance of casting a spell successfully before any spell resistance or saves are taken into account?

Oh darn its not at tier one power, some how I will have to continue on. It is for the most part only the last 5 and levels  that are like this, assuming a true speak item at 3.

Tommy Truenamer thinks he's got a crazy Truespeech skill, up until he actually tries to be competitive with the rest of the party against balors. And pit fiends. And tarrasques. And other difficulties.

Unless he just started at 20, he should have realized how his checks were sliding and invested a little bit more.

Also, you mention attaining a +5 amulet at level 3 and a +10 at level 5. At level 3, it's doable. You'll be left with only 200 gold to your name, but it's doable--assuming you've accumulated all that wealth over time and then spent it, as opposed to creating a 3rd level Truenamer and then disregarding the DMG's strong suggestion that you not spend more than X% of your total wealth on one item.

At level 5, your WBL is 9,000 gp. And the +10 amulet of the silver tongue?

IT'S OVER 9,000! 10,000 gp, to be precise.

It is a strong suggestion not a rule, and your right on the greater amulet. I looked at the price to make on it. I consider the item very high priority, and it needs to be picked up ASAP.

[Brainpiercing]

At level 20 you could get a +30 amulet for just 90K. Sure that's a lot, but it's not unfathomable, and it will mean you really will be using your top utterances a few times per day, even without an item familiar. With an item familiar it's just that much better.

Now wanting to really get too involved in this, just thought I'd mention it.

[JaronK]

At level 20 you could get a +30 amulet for just 90K. Sure that's a lot, but it's not unfathomable, and it will mean you really will be using your top utterances a few times per day, even without an item familiar. With an item familiar it's just that much better.

Only if your DM allows custom magic items.  I've found that's pretty rare, but it happens.  But that's exactly what I'm talking about.  Truenamers who can have access to magic marts and custom items are one power level, while Truenamers who don't get that or Item Familiars are at a completely different level.  It's very DM dependent.

JaronK