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Akalsaris
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« Reply #520 on: July 07, 2009, 03:33:30 AM » |
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Conversely, as a DM I would typically disallow a PC from using Secret Page to fill up a spellbook by replacing Ray of Frost with Polymorph, etc. - if the spell was intended to help a wizard prepare a spellbook for free, it would say something about that. Wizards are powerful and flexible enough already without a common 3rd level spell removing yet another barrier to their Ultimate Arcane Power.
So DM fiat is my main justification - but besides that, it seems clear to me that RAI the spell might look like a Polymorph to anyone reading it, but anyone trying to cast that spell would fail, since it isn't actually the other spell, only a red herring used to disguise the real spell written on the page (written with the 24 hours and the 100g, yadda yadda).
And on a sidenote, the spellbook mechanism in 3.5 is pretty clunky. I mean seriously, it takes up about 2 pages compared to 3 paragraphs for the sorcerer! Not to mention weird stuff like Power Word: Kill taking up 9 pages of a spellbook. And all for a stupid balancing mechanic where in reality the DM can't do much about the spellbook because destroying it would completely screw any PC, so it's generally a non-issue.
(Edited to be less argumentative!)
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« Last Edit: July 07, 2009, 03:39:27 AM by Akalsaris »
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lans
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« Reply #521 on: July 07, 2009, 05:13:06 PM » |
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I would add classes to the tier system in this fashion, might be off by a tier on some
tier 1 Wujen, Spirit Shaman-might be high tier 2, but I think its low tier 1. These classes are slightly used versions of other tier ones. Get some off class abilities, and looses out on others.
Tier 2 Wilder text book tier 2, its can have a couple of broken powers, but not nearly as a tier 1 would have,
Tier 3 Shadowcaster*, imagine if a wizard and sorcerer had a kid, and this is what their kid would be like if they were brother sister, low spells per day and low spells known, but can cover most of the bases.
Incarnate and Totemist, these classes can do almost anything decently.
Tier 4 Coutier* diplomatic awesomeness. In combat has UMD and gets leadership at 9th level. Healer If it gets access to corrupt and/or sanctified spells
The shadow caster can do a fairly wide variety of things as a class. It can root targets in place, deal d6+5 wisdom damage, shadow evocations a level lower in effect, two levels lower in power, immediate action counter spelling, summon shadow elementals with a minute per level duration, timestop+3, mage armor+sheild, incendiary cloud, a fore cage effect, hold monster or slow, blink, scrying, wail of the banshee, control water or winds, displacement or l/5 blurs, will save or die and be under control, 75 temporary hp. So it has a decent range of options, project image, Dominate monster at 15th.
That's save or dies, battle field control, buffs, dominate, summuning, scrying, direct damage, contingency, anti-spell casting and some utility.
Courtier is really good in social encounters, at fourth anybody that lies to him has to make a will save or be found out, like zone of truth but with out the target knowing, or have the opponent in opposed Int, Wis, or Chr checks use the lowest of his mental scores for the effect and always on, a bardic knowledge effect. At 9th level it gets a restricted leadership, it gets a samurai or fighter body guard and the normal assortment of followers.
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Skill prodigy from Kingdoms of Kalamar
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Rebel7284
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« Reply #522 on: July 07, 2009, 05:23:44 PM » |
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What tiers do you guys think is Dragonfire Adept and Dragon Shaman?
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Negative level on a chicken would make it a wight the next day. Chicken the other wight meat. -borg286
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Prime32
Honorary Moderator
Organ Grinder
Posts: 7534
Modding since 03/12/10
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« Reply #523 on: July 07, 2009, 05:28:52 PM » |
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What tiers do you guys think is Dragonfire Adept and Dragon Shaman?
I think DFA was supposed to be Tier 3, since it's better than a warlock. |
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My workDeviantArtCurrent gamesThe tier system in a nutshell: Tier 6: A cartographer. Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman. Tier 4: An expert marksman. Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left. Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy. Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
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ninjarabbit
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« Reply #524 on: July 07, 2009, 05:38:01 PM » |
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Dragonfire adapt: High Tier 4. Basically an somewhat improved warlock with more skill points and slow breath, but still almost a one trick pony
Dragon Shaman: Tier 5, a 5th wheel class that doesn't do any one thing well
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JaronK
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« Reply #525 on: July 07, 2009, 07:17:16 PM » |
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I suspect DFA would be Tier 4 (they've got better than standard Warlock abilities, but lack the item creation/UMD abilities), and probably high in that tier. However, I never add a class I lack experience with, so they're not going on the list for now (they might soon, I'm in a dragon themed campaign right now).
JaronK
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dark_samuari
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« Reply #526 on: July 08, 2009, 12:40:36 AM » |
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Dragon Shaman: Tier 5, a 5th wheel class that doesn't do any one thing well
They heal pretty well. |
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ErhnamDJ
Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
Posts: 197
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« Reply #527 on: July 08, 2009, 01:05:27 AM » |
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They heal pretty well. See also: Healer |
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lans
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« Reply #528 on: July 08, 2009, 03:09:31 PM » |
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Wasn't their an alternate class feature that gave the dragon shaman an invocation?
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Skill prodigy from Kingdoms of Kalamar
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Akalsaris
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« Reply #529 on: July 08, 2009, 04:46:44 PM » |
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I still don't think that's enough to bump them to T4, really.
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Endarire
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« Reply #530 on: July 08, 2009, 05:14:52 PM » |
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Why does power word stun take 8 pages in a spellbook? |
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Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future. Speaking of which: Don't even need TO for this. Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu]. Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"
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EjoThims
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« Reply #531 on: July 08, 2009, 05:36:24 PM » |
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Why does power word stun take 8 pages in a spellbook?
It's got a big ego? |
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Prime32
Honorary Moderator
Organ Grinder
Posts: 7534
Modding since 03/12/10
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« Reply #532 on: July 08, 2009, 06:10:03 PM » |
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Because the pages detail a set of meditations need to unlock the power of the word in the caster's mind?
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My workDeviantArtCurrent gamesThe tier system in a nutshell: Tier 6: A cartographer. Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman. Tier 4: An expert marksman. Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left. Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy. Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
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dither
Hong Kong
Posts: 1413
Breaking the ninth wall
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« Reply #533 on: July 08, 2009, 06:20:00 PM » |
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Maybe it's like doing standards in school.
"I must stun the target's mind with a single word of power."
"I must stun the target's mind with a single word of power."
"I must stun the target's mind with a single word of power."
"I must stun the target's mind with a single word of power."
"I must stun the target's mind with a single word of power."
...
etc.
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"Stuck between a rogue and a bard place." vanityRead my webcomic!Dither's Amazing Changing Avatars"Vegeta! What does the scouter say about Dither's power level?" It's over nine thousand! Well blow me down!  |
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Generic_PC
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« Reply #534 on: July 08, 2009, 06:27:28 PM » |
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I often take up 8 pages with a single sentence in my notepads. I'll draw pictures to help me remember... add colour...
S
T
U
N
with drawings complimenting.
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Witty sayings? Nah, not right now. Currently playing Dwarf Fortress and League of Legends. I really recommend League of Legends. |
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Soda
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« Reply #535 on: July 08, 2009, 07:33:32 PM » |
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I figured it was a really really long word. It takes a whole standard action to say, after all.
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Lycanthromancer
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« Reply #536 on: July 08, 2009, 07:53:09 PM » |
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I figured it was a really really long word. It takes a whole standard action to say, after all.
It was written in Elvish. Tolkien's Elvish. ( Elvis is something different altogether.) |
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Prime32
Honorary Moderator
Organ Grinder
Posts: 7534
Modding since 03/12/10
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« Reply #537 on: July 09, 2009, 07:36:14 AM » |
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I figured it was a really really long word. It takes a whole standard action to say, after all.
It was written in Entish. Tolkien's Entish. Fixed. |
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My workDeviantArtCurrent gamesThe tier system in a nutshell: Tier 6: A cartographer. Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman. Tier 4: An expert marksman. Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left. Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy. Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
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lans
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« Reply #538 on: July 09, 2009, 04:26:58 PM » |
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I still don't think that's enough to bump them to T4, really.
Just looking at what they are capable of, they are decent at buffing, can heal pretty decently, they can pick up fog cloud or deafening roar with the alternate class feature, and provide a bonus to spot, listen and initiative and then when combat stats switch to a bonus to energy shield. I though it could provide a bonus to hit, but its just damage. So I guess I will put it at high tier 5 |
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Skill prodigy from Kingdoms of Kalamar
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Kuroimaken
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« Reply #539 on: July 09, 2009, 05:02:48 PM » |
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If it weren't for the idiotic cap on their fast healing ability, they could heal way better than a healer. Their "pseudo lay on hands" isn't THAT bad either.
Plus decent hit dice and decent saves make for nice survivability. They try to do what a Bard does, but less effectively. That's a Tier 4 to me.
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