Tier System for Classes

[Kuroimaken]

And while it's possible to, in a campaign that's using LA buyoff, to find a white dragonspawn green dragonspawn loredrake dragonwrought kobold, and get a guy with leadership that casts spells as a sorcerer two levels higher than you, it isn't very likely.

All this takes is a bog standard sylph as a cohort and the paladins mount feature, so I think mine is slightly more possible than yours. I will agree that this is not likely to be allowed, and is shaky by book. So My next question is why the barbarian is at tier 4 when the fighter and the paladin are not? The fighter can mostly match its abilities from the comparisons that I've seen. Paladins make decent smite chargers, Is it because of pounce?

The Fighter can be used to make a variety of builds and do one thing fairly well (dual or multi-threat effective Fighters are rare, however). The Barbarian is only partially decent at what he does, since his main class feature reduces his options rather than expand them. The Paladin can do only one thing fairly well (if well built), but he also has spellcasting to offset his flaws somewhat.

[Negative Zero]

Pounce is a very, very good ability. I'd say that Lion Totem Barbarian is dipped more often than Fighter is, at this point.

All this takes is a bog standard sylph as a cohort and the paladins mount feature, so I think mine is slightly more possible than yours. I will agree that this is not likely to be allowed, and is shaky by book.

"The standard mount for a Medium paladin is a heavy warhorse, and the standard mount for a Small paladin is a warpony (see below for statistics). Your DM may work with you to select another kind of mount, such as a riding dog (for a halfling paladin) or a Large shark (for a paladin in an aquatic campaign)."
Anything other than a heavy worhorse or warpony will require you to 'work with the DM'. Not 'ask the DM to make sure it's okay,' but 'work with the DM.' The way I read it, that mostly invalidates the trick, as your DM would have to expressly allow it.

[dither]

Anything other than a heavy worhorse or warpony will require you to 'work with the DM'. Not 'ask the DM to make sure it's okay,' but 'work with the DM.' The way I read it, that mostly invalidates the trick, as your DM would have to expressly allow it.

I thought the same thing and was working under the assumption that he had some kind of Improved Cohort cheese-feat.

[lans]

Pounce is a very, very good ability. I'd say that Lion Totem Barbarian is dipped more often than Fighter is, at this point.

All this takes is a bog standard sylph as a cohort and the paladins mount feature, so I think mine is slightly more possible than yours. I will agree that this is not likely to be allowed, and is shaky by book.

"The standard mount for a Medium paladin is a heavy warhorse, and the standard mount for a Small paladin is a warpony (see below for statistics). Your DM may work with you to select another kind of mount, such as a riding dog (for a halfling paladin) or a Large shark (for a paladin in an aquatic campaign)."
Anything other than a heavy worhorse or warpony will require you to 'work with the DM'. Not 'ask the DM to make sure it's okay,' but 'work with the DM.' The way I read it, that mostly invalidates the trick, as your DM would have to expressly allow it.

I'll retract the idea for the paladin.

[JaronK]

The Barbarian is low Tier 4, but decidedly above a bunch of the Tier 5s mostly because his one trick (beating the ever loving snot out of enemies very fast) is easily accomplished and useful to most groups.  The Fighter is high Tier 4... he can also do the beating the snot out of people thing, but it requires a lot more work, more appropriate gear, etc.  A Barbarian just needs a two handed weapon to one hit kill most enemies if built vaguely competantly, whereas for a Fighter to get similar damage he'd need a +1 Splitting Bow and all sorts of other goodness.

JaronK

[lans]

All this takes is a bog standard sylph as a cohort and the paladins mount feature, so I think mine is slightly more possible than yours. I will agree that this is not likely to be allowed, and is shaky by book. So My next question is why the barbarian is at tier 4 when the fighter and the paladin are not? The fighter can mostly match its abilities from the comparisons that I've seen. Paladins make decent smite chargers, Is it because of pounce?

I feel like you're ignoring my posts about the sheer ludicrosity of a sylph companion for a mount RP-wise. What am I, chopped locathah?

Sure why not. I can think of a couple of reasons why it might occur, but the sylph might just do it for the power boost. If I was a mid level caster and there was a way for me to double my spell casting levels I would go for it in a heart beat, if all it required was me carrying some dude on my back all day.

I think the barbarian gets more hit points and has class features like rage, damage reduction, uncanny dodge, etc., while the fighter just gets feats. The barbarian can get many of the same feats that a fighter can, with the obvious exception of the fighter-only feats. I'm not an expert on why the paladin is considered sub-par, however, so I'll leave that one to someone else.

Okay. The only class feature of the barbarians that were of any value were the rage and the pounce. The fighter can duplicate rage fairly decently so I guess its just the pounce.

[Negative Zero]

All this takes is a bog standard sylph as a cohort and the paladins mount feature, so I think mine is slightly more possible than yours. I will agree that this is not likely to be allowed, and is shaky by book. So My next question is why the barbarian is at tier 4 when the fighter and the paladin are not? The fighter can mostly match its abilities from the comparisons that I've seen. Paladins make decent smite chargers, Is it because of pounce?

I feel like you're ignoring my posts about the sheer ludicrosity of a sylph companion for a mount RP-wise. What am I, chopped locathah?

Sure why not. I can think of a couple of reasons why it might occur, but the sylph might just do it for the power boost. If I was a mid level caster and there was a way for me to double my spell casting levels I would go for it in a heart beat, if all it required was me carrying some dude on my back all day.

If you were a mid-level caster, would you decide to give up the ability to gain levels on your own, so you can be carted around by a stick-up-the-ass Paladin who wants you to demean yourself by transforming into a lowly beast so he can ride you?

I think the barbarian gets more hit points and has class features like rage, damage reduction, uncanny dodge, etc., while the fighter just gets feats. The barbarian can get many of the same feats that a fighter can, with the obvious exception of the fighter-only feats. I'm not an expert on why the paladin is considered sub-par, however, so I'll leave that one to someone else.

Okay. The only class feature of the barbarians that were of any value were the rage and the pounce. The fighter can duplicate rage fairly decently so I guess its just the pounce.

I think pounce is plenty good, but how easily can a fighter duplicate rage? If it takes four or six feats, it's not really a fair trade for the one level of Barbarian.

[JaronK]

Pounce alone is powerful enough to give Barbarians a serious edge.  Orc Lion Totem Barbarian 6 with Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Shock Trooper, wielding a two handed weapon, is a pretty stock standard Barbarian, and is easily capable of destroying pretty much everyone in his path.  Without Lion Totem, Barbarians would probably be T5.

JaronK

[lans]

All this takes is a bog standard sylph as a cohort and the paladins mount feature, so I think mine is slightly more possible than yours. I will agree that this is not likely to be allowed, and is shaky by book. So My next question is why the barbarian is at tier 4 when the fighter and the paladin are not? The fighter can mostly match its abilities from the comparisons that I've seen. Paladins make decent smite chargers, Is it because of pounce?

I feel like you're ignoring my posts about the sheer ludicrosity of a sylph companion for a mount RP-wise. What am I, chopped locathah?

Sure why not. I can think of a couple of reasons why it might occur, but the sylph might just do it for the power boost. If I was a mid level caster and there was a way for me to double my spell casting levels I would go for it in a heart beat, if all it required was me carrying some dude on my back all day.

If you were a mid-level caster, would you decide to give up the ability to gain levels on your own, so you can be carted around by a stick-up-the-ass Paladin who wants you to demean yourself by transforming into a lowly beast so he can ride you?

I think the barbarian gets more hit points and has class features like rage, damage reduction, uncanny dodge, etc., while the fighter just gets feats. The barbarian can get many of the same feats that a fighter can, with the obvious exception of the fighter-only feats. I'm not an expert on why the paladin is considered sub-par, however, so I'll leave that one to someone else.

Okay. The only class feature of the barbarians that were of any value were the rage and the pounce. The fighter can duplicate rage fairly decently so I guess its just the pounce.

I think pounce is plenty good, but how easily can a fighter duplicate rage? If it takes four or six feats, it's not really a fair trade for the one level of Barbarian.

Thats the rage/mighty and greater that the fighter reproduces. It takes 7 feats to do. 4 feats to up the damage and hitting, and 3 feats to cover the barbs increase to will saves, hp and bonuses to trip etc.
It wasn't an exact match, but more of a tossup of abilities.

[lans]

Pounce alone is powerful enough to give Barbarians a serious edge.  Orc Lion Totem Barbarian 6 with Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Shock Trooper, wielding a two handed weapon, is a pretty stock standard Barbarian, and is easily capable of destroying pretty much everyone in his path.  Without Lion Totem, Barbarians would probably be T5.

JaronK

Then wouldn't it just be the lion totem varient that is in tier 4 and the barbarian in tier 5? Its what happened with the fighters with dungeon crasher.

Also couldn't a fighter do similar damage with spirited charge with shock trooper? It should be quite comparable.
4d6+2PA+2STR+2Rage versus 3d8+3PA+3STR similar ideas, similar builds. Fighter has a feat left over likely spent on either wild cohort or ancesteral relic.

[bogsnes]

Pounce alone is powerful enough to give Barbarians a serious edge.  Orc Lion Totem Barbarian 6 with Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Shock Trooper, wielding a two handed weapon, is a pretty stock standard Barbarian, and is easily capable of destroying pretty much everyone in his path.  Without Lion Totem, Barbarians would probably be T5.

JaronK

Then wouldn't it just be the lion totem varient that is in tier 4 and the barbarian in tier 5? Its what happened with the fighters with dungeon crasher.

Also couldn't a fighter do similar damage with spirited charge with shock trooper? It should be quite comparable.
4d6+2PA+2STR+2Rage versus 3d8+3PA+3STR similar ideas, similar builds. Fighter has a feat left over likely spent on either wild cohort or ancesteral relic.

That's probably becauseALL barbarians take lion totem (or close to all), while not all fighters takes dungeoncrasher...

[veekie]

All this takes is a bog standard sylph as a cohort and the paladins mount feature, so I think mine is slightly more possible than yours. I will agree that this is not likely to be allowed, and is shaky by book. So My next question is why the barbarian is at tier 4 when the fighter and the paladin are not? The fighter can mostly match its abilities from the comparisons that I've seen. Paladins make decent smite chargers, Is it because of pounce?

I feel like you're ignoring my posts about the sheer ludicrosity of a sylph companion for a mount RP-wise. What am I, chopped locathah?

Sure why not. I can think of a couple of reasons why it might occur, but the sylph might just do it for the power boost. If I was a mid level caster and there was a way for me to double my spell casting levels I would go for it in a heart beat, if all it required was me carrying some dude on my back all day.

If you were a mid-level caster, would you decide to give up the ability to gain levels on your own, so you can be carted around by a stick-up-the-ass Paladin who wants you to demean yourself by transforming into a lowly beast so he can ride you?

Someone with many kinks? Letting a paladin she's dominated ages ago ride her for kicks?

Does it work if you were a sorceror who's paladin cohort designated her as a mount though?

[EjoThims]

Does it work if you were a sorceror who's paladin cohort designated her as a mount though?

From what I can tell, you'd just have to apply the +2 ECL and the appropriate penalties to the Ride checks... 

[lans]

All this takes is a bog standard sylph as a cohort and the paladins mount feature, so I think mine is slightly more possible than yours. I will agree that this is not likely to be allowed, and is shaky by book. So My next question is why the barbarian is at tier 4 when the fighter and the paladin are not? The fighter can mostly match its abilities from the comparisons that I've seen. Paladins make decent smite chargers, Is it because of pounce?

I feel like you're ignoring my posts about the sheer ludicrosity of a sylph companion for a mount RP-wise. What am I, chopped locathah?

Sure why not. I can think of a couple of reasons why it might occur, but the sylph might just do it for the power boost. If I was a mid level caster and there was a way for me to double my spell casting levels I would go for it in a heart beat, if all it required was me carrying some dude on my back all day.

If you were a mid-level caster, would you decide to give up the ability to gain levels on your own, so you can be carted around by a stick-up-the-ass Paladin who wants you to demean yourself by transforming into a lowly beast so he can ride you?
[/quote]
It doesn't give up its abilities to gain levels, is should be gaining them as any other cohort would.

[lans]

Pounce alone is powerful enough to give Barbarians a serious edge.  Orc Lion Totem Barbarian 6 with Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Shock Trooper, wielding a two handed weapon, is a pretty stock standard Barbarian, and is easily capable of destroying pretty much everyone in his path.  Without Lion Totem, Barbarians would probably be T5.

JaronK

Then wouldn't it just be the lion totem varient that is in tier 4 and the barbarian in tier 5? Its what happened with the fighters with dungeon crasher.

Also couldn't a fighter do similar damage with spirited charge with shock trooper? It should be quite comparable.
4d6+2PA+2STR+2Rage versus 3d8+3PA+3STR similar ideas, similar builds. Fighter has a feat left over likely spent on either wild cohort or ancesteral relic.

That's probably becauseALL barbarians take lion totem (or close to all), while not all fighters takes dungeoncrasher...

Somebody might not realize that though, and they might take a horse totem.  Or even a normal barbarian.

Like the binder, all of them are going to take the summoning vestige, maybe not every day, but quite often.

[dither]

Somebody might not realize that though, and they might take a horse totem.  Or even a normal barbarian.

Like the binder, all of them are going to take the summoning vestige, maybe not every day, but quite often.

Yeah, looking at it like this -- what's the core class get? Sure, there are plenty of ACFs that can twink out both classes.

Seriously. What abilities can the fighter get to increase his own ability scores? I think when you look at the two classes side-by-side, you should ask yourself: "how does a fighter get a +4 bonus to his Strength and Constitution, even a temporary one, to two of the most important ability scores to his class?" The answer is: he plays a barbarian instead.

Yes, of course there are other answers to this question, like spellcasting and ACFs and buttloads of feats, but look at the class by itself. Now that you've got the class pictured by itself, you might "round up" a little to assume for some feats and ACFs, but none of those are particularly game-breaking in the fighter's case.

Besides, all it takes is a 1st-level minor image spell to get the stupid bastard to charge an insubstantial illusion.

[lans]

Somebody might not realize that though, and they might take a horse totem.  Or even a normal barbarian.

Like the binder, all of them are going to take the summoning vestige, maybe not every day, but quite often.

Yeah, looking at it like this -- what's the core class get? Sure, there are plenty of ACFs that can twink out both classes.

Seriously. What abilities can the fighter get to increase his own ability scores? I think when you look at the two classes side-by-side, you should ask yourself: "how does a fighter get a +4 bonus to his Strength and Constitution, even a temporary one, to two of the most important ability scores to his class?" The answer is: he plays a barbarian instead.

What do the increased ability scores do that increases combat effectiveness? They mostly just add to damage.

Yes, of course there are other answers to this question, like spellcasting and ACFs and buttloads of feats, but look at the class by itself. Now that you've got the class pictured by itself, you might "round up" a little to assume for some feats and ACFs, but none of those are particularly game-breaking in the fighter's case.

The only thing the barbarian got was pounce, through an alternative class feature, which is the only thing putting the barbarian into tier 4.

Besides, all it takes is a 1st-level minor image spell to get the stupid bastard to charge an insubstantial illusion.

Which going against the barbs only Aclass feature that is making him tier 4.
w

[dither]

What do the increased ability scores do that increases combat effectiveness? They mostly just add to damage.

Mostly I look at it like this:
You play an orc that has a +4 racial bonus to Strength. You roll an 18 and put it in your Strength. You have a 22, which is worth a +6. Then you rage, boosting yourself to 26, which is worth +8. If you pick up Reckless Rage (or any of a handful of other easy feats within reach) that goes up another +2, for 28, a +9. If you have anyone in the party who can cast bull's strength (mind you, this is the first time you're looking for anything beyond yourself, here) you can get up to a 32, which is a +11. Let's say you go Orc Racial Paragon and pick up your nice 3rd-level +2 to strength, you're at a whopping 36 Strength, which is worth +13 modifier.

What did I use?
Orc race; barbarian 1/orc paragon 3; Reckless Rage
plus one friend who could be anyone who can cast off the cleric or sorcerer list (which is a lot)

Suboptimal, yes, but a 36 Strength a couple times a day ... that makes you stronger than some gods.

Did I hear someone punch out Cthulhu?

[Negative Zero]

Do note that, with a Str of 36, you are stronger than Fire Giants, Triceratops, Elephants, Baleen Whales, and Balors.

[dither]

Do note that, with a Str of 36, you are stronger than Fire Giants, Triceratops, Elephants, Baleen Whales, and Balors.

Did I mention the above, while poorly optimized, is possible by 4th level?