Tier System for Classes

[lans]

That, and builds that focus on a single class feature tend to be Tier 4 by default. If they can't use it for some reason, they end up much worse off than they ought to be.

So sorcerers are tier 4 then? After all, the builds on them focus on a single class feature, and when they are denied it they are much worse of than they ought to be.

That's why he said "tend to be" rather than "always are".

Besides, spells aren't a class feature.  They're a way of life.

So what about your mount casting spells like a sorcerer at a level 2-4 above yours? The mount can do anything a sorcerer can do, which would make this the same tier as the sorcerer would be. Actually it gets a 1 higher in spell level access. Which makes this build at least 3 tiers above were you had the paladin.

[lans]

For example, by the DMs guide using a cohort as a mount raises the efective level of the cohort by 2.

Wrong. It lowers the effective level by 2, to compensate for the extra abilities it gets.

Which makes my idea a little bit worse, but the point mostly still stands. At 10th level it will have a casting level equal to the Sorcerer,   at 14 it will be two higher.

[Prime32]

For example, by the DMs guide using a cohort as a mount raises the efective level of the cohort by 2.

Wrong. It lowers the effective level by 2, to compensate for the extra abilities it gets.

Which makes my idea a little bit worse, but the point mostly still stands. At 10th level it will have a casting level equal to the Sorcerer,   at 14 it will be two higher.

Um, you still need the Leadership feat. And you don't need to be a paladin to take Leadership.

[Sinfire Titan]

So sorcerers are tier 4 then? After all, the builds on them focus on a single class feature, and when they are denied it they are much worse of than they ought to be.

I've only seen a few builds focus on the one class feature they get, and that's a Supermount build.



Oh, you meant their spells. That's actually 3+ class features/spell level.

I think the healer might be moved up a tier or two because of book of vile darkness, and book of exalted deeds. They give access to a wider range of spells for any prepared caster, and the healers list sucks enough to were they might make heavy use of them.

Corrupt and Sanctified spells are not very powerful. A few of them are, but not enough to warrant a Tier change. Plus those two books are commonly banned due to the disruption they can cause.

[lans]

For example, by the DMs guide using a cohort as a mount raises the efective level of the cohort by 2.

Wrong. It lowers the effective level by 2, to compensate for the extra abilities it gets.

Which makes my idea a little bit worse, but the point mostly still stands. At 10th level it will have a casting level equal to the Sorcerer,   at 14 it will be two higher.

Um, you still need the Leadership feat. And you don't need to be a paladin to take Leadership.

A wizard needs a spell book. And you don't need to be a wizard to have a spellbook.
A sorcerer needs a charisma over ten. And you don't need to be a sorcerer to have a charisma over 10 now do you?

The  paladin is doing something with leadership that no other class can.

[Prime32]

For example, by the DMs guide using a cohort as a mount raises the efective level of the cohort by 2.

Wrong. It lowers the effective level by 2, to compensate for the extra abilities it gets.

Which makes my idea a little bit worse, but the point mostly still stands. At 10th level it will have a casting level equal to the Sorcerer,   at 14 it will be two higher.

Um, you still need the Leadership feat. And you don't need to be a paladin to take Leadership.

A wizard needs a spell book. And you don't need to be a wizard to have a spellbook.
A sorcerer needs a charisma over ten. And you don't need to be a sorcerer to have a charisma over 10 now do you?

The  paladin is doing something with leadership that no other class can.

Who in the what now?

Any 12th-level character can get a 10th-level sorcerer as a cohort. The paladin can do that, or he can get an 8th-level sorcerer with Improved Evasion and some other stuff.

[lans]

Corrupt and Sanctified spells are not very powerful. A few of them are, but not enough to warrant a Tier change. Plus those two books are commonly banned due to the disruption they can cause.

They can blind, be screwed for d4 rounds or die, some direct damage, buffing, flight, summoning, disquise self, a second level spell that does 5d4 dex damage at 13th.
The fact that some DMs don't allow the books shouldn't really be relevant.

[lans]

For example, by the DMs guide using a cohort as a mount raises the efective level of the cohort by 2.

Wrong. It lowers the effective level by 2, to compensate for the extra abilities it gets.

Which makes my idea a little bit worse, but the point mostly still stands. At 10th level it will have a casting level equal to the Sorcerer,   at 14 it will be two higher.

Um, you still need the Leadership feat. And you don't need to be a paladin to take Leadership.

A wizard needs a spell book. And you don't need to be a wizard to have a spellbook.
A sorcerer needs a charisma over ten. And you don't need to be a sorcerer to have a charisma over 10 now do you?

The  paladin is doing something with leadership that no other class can.

Who in the what now?

Any 12th-level character can get a 10th-level sorcerer as a cohort. The paladin can do that, or he can get an 8th-level sorcerer with Improved Evasion and some other stuff.

I'm using a slyph that gets spells based on its HD. The paladins mount feature adds HD to the sylph and increases her spell casting level.

[dither]

I'm using a slyph that gets spells based on its HD. The paladins mount feature adds HD to the sylph and increases her spell casting level.

Um... you win? 

BTW, what alignment is a sylph? Aren't they chaotic? Do they really want to cart around an LG paladin? What if the paladin has a holy avenger? You know, the bane of chaotic and evil characters without discrimination?

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Doesn't a mount have to be an animal?

[dither]

Doesn't a mount have to be an animal?

*shrug* I was assuming that Leadership let you pick a nonstandard creature that could then double as your paladin mount.

Still, a sylph is a faerie creature. I don't picture her bending over and letting a paladin straddle her. (All-female race?)

[lans]

Doesn't a mount have to be an animal?

*shrug* I was assuming that Leadership let you pick a nonstandard creature that could then double as your paladin mount.

Still, a sylph is a faerie creature. I don't picture her bending over and letting a paladin straddle her. (All-female race?)

It cast spells like a 7th level sorcerer, so it uses alterself to take the form of a hell hound.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Doesn't a mount have to be an animal?

*shrug* I was assuming that Leadership let you pick a nonstandard creature that could then double as your paladin mount.

Still, a sylph is a faerie creature. I don't picture her bending over and letting a paladin straddle her. (All-female race?)

It cast spells like a 7th level sorcerer, so it uses alterself to take the form of a hell hound.

Hell hounds are still outsiders, not animals.

And even if it worked, we aren't taking dirty tricks into account anyway, since Pun-Pun works with every class. 

[JaronK]

There are no rules that explicitly allow a Paladin to use a Slyph as a mount, and it's VERY dodgy.  Basically, the argument here boils down to "if my DM lets me get away with some leadership tricks and some dodgy rules interpretations so I get a Sorcerer with me, I'm more powerful."  That's pretty much true of any class.  I mean heck, a Commoner with Leadership can have a cohort that's a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Loredrake Sorcerer with the Greater Draconic Rite and now he has a Sorcerer of his level.  Is he now Tier 2 as well?

JaronK

[lans]

There are no rules that explicitly allow a Paladin to use a Slyph as a mount, and it's VERY dodgy.  Basically, the argument here boils down to "if my DM lets me get away with some leadership tricks and some dodgy rules interpretations so I get a Sorcerer with me, I'm more powerful."  That's pretty much true of any class.  I mean heck, a Commoner with Leadership can have a cohort that's a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Loredrake Sorcerer with the Greater Draconic Rite and now he has a Sorcerer of his level.  Is he now Tier 2 as well?

JaronK

This is of his level+2-4

[dither]

*shrug* I was assuming that Leadership let you pick a nonstandard creature that could then double as your paladin mount.

Still, a sylph is a faerie creature. I don't picture her bending over and letting a paladin straddle her. (All-female race?)

It cast spells like a 7th level sorcerer, so it uses alterself to take the form of a hell hound.

I was irritated by the fact that you ignored my question about the sylph's type and alignment, so I looked it up. The sylph is an outsider native to the elemental plane of air with a usually neutral alignment. A standard sylph has a 15 Intelligence.

So, while it is possible that your paladin could contact a sylph from the elemental plane of air, and it's possible that you could find a sylph that's either Lawful Good, or otherwise willing to join your cause (and hurt your Leadership score for being of a different alignment), and it's possible that you could convince her (all-female race?) to transform into a form that's suitable for riding, none of that is very probable.

It would make for an interesting, if slightly erotic adventure, however.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

And while it's possible to, in a campaign that's using LA buyoff, to find a white dragonspawn green dragonspawn loredrake dragonwrought kobold, and get a guy with leadership that casts spells as a sorcerer two levels higher than you, it isn't very likely.

[Khorus]

It would make for an interesting, if slightly erotic adventure, however.

Dither, you are amazing ^

[lans]

And while it's possible to, in a campaign that's using LA buyoff, to find a white dragonspawn green dragonspawn loredrake dragonwrought kobold, and get a guy with leadership that casts spells as a sorcerer two levels higher than you, it isn't very likely.

All this takes is a bog standard sylph as a cohort and the paladins mount feature, so I think mine is slightly more possible than yours. I will agree that this is not likely to be allowed, and is shaky by book. So My next question is why the barbarian is at tier 4 when the fighter and the paladin are not? The fighter can mostly match its abilities from the comparisons that I've seen. Paladins make decent smite chargers, Is it because of pounce?

[dither]

All this takes is a bog standard sylph as a cohort and the paladins mount feature, so I think mine is slightly more possible than yours. I will agree that this is not likely to be allowed, and is shaky by book. So My next question is why the barbarian is at tier 4 when the fighter and the paladin are not? The fighter can mostly match its abilities from the comparisons that I've seen. Paladins make decent smite chargers, Is it because of pounce?

I feel like you're ignoring my posts about the sheer ludicrosity of a sylph companion for a mount RP-wise. What am I, chopped locathah?

I think the barbarian gets more hit points and has class features like rage, damage reduction, uncanny dodge, etc., while the fighter just gets feats. The barbarian can get many of the same feats that a fighter can, with the obvious exception of the fighter-only feats. I'm not an expert on why the paladin is considered sub-par, however, so I'll leave that one to someone else.

It would make for an interesting, if slightly erotic adventure, however.

Dither, you are amazing ^

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