Tier System for Classes

[Lycanthromancer]

See those little lines on the side that say +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/ +1 level of existing manifesting class?

Yeah, there's your class features.

Cerebremetamagic gives out 'free' metamagic (it says a third level wizard can get a maximized magic missile with it, so it doesn't seem to be limited by the max level you can cast; it must mean you can't get a higher level base spell than normal, like a fifth level wizard using it to get polymorph). Sure, it takes a few power points. Ooh, big deal. The guy takes psiotheurgist too, so his caster level is in the sixties for his chosen school and discipline.

Again, he can get whatever he wants if he gates something in and uses fusion with it.

I don't think that means what you think it means.

[ErhnamDJ]

I don't think that means what you think it means.

Ah, trying to squeeze meaning from something is often akin to doing the same with water, only from a stone.

Yeah, yeah, I get that it was probably supposed to have been about empower spell. But that it says maximize is enough wiggle room for me to pretend that everything else was wrong and that it can give a ninth level wizard persistant draconic polymorph.

[Bozwevial]

See those little lines on the side that say +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/ +1 level of existing manifesting class?

Yeah, there's your class features.

Did you completely miss the words in my post "other than the casting progression"?

Cerebremetamagic is limited by the highest spell level you can cast, by the way. Silly typos in the rules aside, because if you allow that, then the Vigilante jumps to 20 3rd level spells at one point. And then to 31.

[ErhnamDJ]

Uhh... okay. So why are you discounting the casting and manifesting? Is there some magical importance added to something if it is deemed a Class Feature?

Gating in a great wurm prismatic and fusing with it, then going to town with psychic reformation on all its feats seems a wee bit more powerful to me than whatever it is those other things you mentioned can do (unless we're counting Ice Assassin).

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Um, trading out those feats is way sketchy. Since there is no definition for "pooled" I'd say that relies on your RAI. I'd say that don't belong to you, but you have access to their benefit.

However, if it did work that would be sweet.

[ErhnamDJ]

It definitely works. You can reformation the thing before you fusion with it.

[juton]

Refering back to page 20, I'm curious to here from other people who've used the Generic Caster in a real campaign. I personally think it's a strong Tier 2, but not overpowered and definitely not Tier 1. Despite all the options available the majority of my spells where off the Sorc/Wiz list. However being Int based, the bonus feats, and being able to choose my own skill points where awesome. What keeps the Sorcerer Tier 2 isn't his lack of skill points or feats, it's his limited spells known. Which is exactly what keeps a Generic Caster Tier 2.

[woodenbandman]

Except a Generic Caster can get all the goodies of all the classes. Shapechange + Divine Power + Bite of the Poo, all on one guy.

Not necessarily stronger than a wizard, but at the very least it shits on the sorceror.

[ErhnamDJ]

You realize that thing you just mentioned was the archivist, right? Except the archivist gets all his spells a level earlier. And he really does get all the spells.

[juton]

Except a Generic Caster can get all the goodies of all the classes. Shapechange + Divine Power + Bite of the Poo, all on one guy.

Not necessarily stronger than a wizard, but at the very least it shits on the sorceror.

Well, according to the RAW the Sorcerer can get access to those spells as well.

A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).

Both of these classes are going to PRC as soon as possible, so in the end the Generic Caster gets above and beyond a Sorcerer:

• Some feats
• His choice of class skills
• Int or Cha as his casting stat.

You can choose two class skills as a feat. There is no way to switch over your casting stat however, but CHA synergizes with a lot of things. It comes out ahead of a Sorcerer by the equivalent of about 3-4 feats. The Generic Caster is better, but not by some unassailable margin.

[ErhnamDJ]

They can pick Wisdom too. And then cast in armor. Makes an okay gish that way (except for the gimped level 4 for second level spells problem).

[awaken DM golem]

... Cerebremetamagic ...

Dragon #349 psionics stuff 
Cerebremancer / Psychic Theurge aren't that good without tricks.
Dr #349 ... is ... tricks.

A psi recharge set-up with one of those feats (i'm-not-rc) equals infinite metamagic. Sweet.

[lans]

I have  a question on the paladins ranking. Does the paladins mount come into play at all on that? There are several rules on the mount in the books, and some of them are quite broken could any of them sway the paladins tier at all?

For example, by the DMs guide using a cohort as a mount raises the efective level of the cohort by 2. So the paladin takes the Improved cohort feat to knock the level of the cohort down by 1.  The paladins mount feature gives the character 6 hit die at level 11.

In order to be a mount the creature has to be willing and able to carry the rider. So any creature that can assume a form of a quadruped should be a fair choice. Like a werewolf could serve as a mount for a goblin for an example.

So the paladin takes a sylph as his cohort at level 11. The sylph uses alter self to take the form of a hell hound. The sylph is then a mount for the paladin. Which gets her 6 hit die, which makes her cast spells as a 13th level sorcerer.

[JaronK]

Clever... but at the same time, leadership tricks work just fine for any class.

JaronK

[Sinfire Titan]

I have  a question on the paladins ranking. Does the paladins mount come into play at all on that? There are several rules on the mount in the books, and some of them are quite broken could any of them sway the paladins tier at all?

For example, by the DMs guide using a cohort as a mount raises the efective level of the cohort by 2. So the paladin takes the Improved cohort feat to knock the level of the cohort down by 1.  The paladins mount feature gives the character 6 hit die at level 11.

In order to be a mount the creature has to be willing and able to carry the rider. So any creature that can assume a form of a quadruped should be a fair choice. Like a werewolf could serve as a mount for a goblin for an example.

So the paladin takes a sylph as his cohort at level 11. The sylph uses alter self to take the form of a hell hound. The sylph is then a mount for the paladin. Which gets her 6 hit die, which makes her cast spells as a 13th level sorcerer.

A mount-focused build is a form of optimization, and can raise the Paladin a tier or two. But it should be noted that a Supermount build or a build that focuses on its cohort is actually a build designed to optimize the cohort, and the Paladin is little more than a tag-along. In the end, it actually abuses something other than the Paladin's special mount class feature.

That, and builds that focus on a single class feature tend to be Tier 4 by default. If they can't use it for some reason, they end up much worse off than they ought to be.

[lans]

I have  a question on the paladins ranking. Does the paladins mount come into play at all on that? There are several rules on the mount in the books, and some of them are quite broken could any of them sway the paladins tier at all?

For example, by the DMs guide using a cohort as a mount raises the efective level of the cohort by 2. So the paladin takes the Improved cohort feat to knock the level of the cohort down by 1.  The paladins mount feature gives the character 6 hit die at level 11.

In order to be a mount the creature has to be willing and able to carry the rider. So any creature that can assume a form of a quadruped should be a fair choice. Like a werewolf could serve as a mount for a goblin for an example.

So the paladin takes a sylph as his cohort at level 11. The sylph uses alter self to take the form of a hell hound. The sylph is then a mount for the paladin. Which gets her 6 hit die, which makes her cast spells as a 13th level sorcerer.

A mount-focused build is a form of optimization, and can raise the Paladin a tier or two. But it should be noted that a Supermount build or a build that focuses on its cohort is actually a build designed to optimize the cohort, and the Paladin is little more than a tag-along. In the end, it actually abuses something other than the Paladin's special mount class feature.

This is only abusing the Paladin's mount feature.

That, and builds that focus on a single class feature tend to be Tier 4 by default. If they can't use it for some reason, they end up much worse off than they ought to be.

So sorcerers are tier 4 then? After all, the builds on them focus on a single class feature, and when they are denied it they are much worse of than they ought to be.

[lans]

I think the healer might be moved up a tier or two because of book of vile darkness, and book of exalted deeds. They give access to a wider range of spells for any prepared caster, and the healers list sucks enough to were they might make heavy use of them.

[Prime32]

For example, by the DMs guide using a cohort as a mount raises the efective level of the cohort by 2.

Wrong. It lowers the level by 2 (increased effective level means +2 LA), to compensate for the extra abilities it gets.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

That, and builds that focus on a single class feature tend to be Tier 4 by default. If they can't use it for some reason, they end up much worse off than they ought to be.

So sorcerers are tier 4 then? After all, the builds on them focus on a single class feature, and when they are denied it they are much worse of than they ought to be.

That's why he said "tend to be" rather than "always are".

Besides, spells aren't a class feature.  They're a way of life.

[dither]

Besides, spells aren't a class feature.  They're a way of life.

Hear! Hear!