Tier System for Classes

[EjoThims]

*cough*

I always loved how that generic class was better than the Fighter in every way. 

[woodenbandman]

Hey guys what would you say the tier of a Knight is? I'm guessing it's a 4.

[juton]

Hey guys what would you say the tier of a Knight is? I'm guessing it's a 4.

I think that's on the money.

Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining.

I think a Knight can tank well. A 3 level dip was a mainstay of lockdown builds before Bo9S.

[JaronK]

I the 4 to 5 range.  Useful abilities for tanking, but in my experience that peters out after a bit.  It's kind of like Fighter... they seem to get their good stuff early, but then that's all you really get.  But I don't have enough experience to say for certain.  It's definitely not tier 3 or 6.

JaronK

[Braithwaite]

I would say 5. To my mind a knight is simply a fighter who is forced by his class features into a sub-optimal weapon choice, and gives up his bonus feats for some armor class bonuses. He shouldn't come out above base fighter or paladin on the list. Yes, a 3 level dip is beneficial for builds, but a 2 level fighter, 2 level paladin, or 3 level swashbuckler dip is also sometimes beneficial for particular builds.

To look at it another way, he does one thing very well, but that one thing is standing and getting beaten on. Few groups need a dedicated character to stand and get beaten on. For that matter, in many ways the paladin beats the knight in his ability to stand in a corridor and get beaten on. The paladin trades marginally better ac and hp for better saves, better damage (if fighting smitable opponents), turn attempts usable for powering feats and the ability to heal himself in the off chance that he managed to win a fight.

[Sinfire Titan]

I would say 5. To my mind a knight is simply a fighter who is forced by his class features into a sub-optimal weapon choice, and gives up his bonus feats for some armor class bonuses. He shouldn't come out above base fighter or paladin on the list. Yes, a 3 level dip is beneficial for builds, but a 2 level fighter, 2 level paladin, or 3 level swashbuckler dip is also sometimes beneficial for particular builds.

To look at it another way, he does one thing very well, but that one thing is standing and getting beaten on. Few groups need a dedicated character to stand and get beaten on. For that matter, in many ways the paladin beats the knight in his ability to stand in a corridor and get beaten on. The paladin trades marginally better ac and hp for better saves, better damage (if fighting smitable opponents), turn attempts usable for powering feats and the ability to heal himself in the off chance that he managed to win a fight.

Um, the Knight is proficient with all Simple and Martial weapons hoss, and the Knight's class features are sometimes useful (like whenever you fight something that isn't mindless).

[juton]

I would say 5. To my mind a knight is simply a fighter who is forced by his class features into a sub-optimal weapon choice, and gives up his bonus feats for some armor class bonuses. He shouldn't come out above base fighter or paladin on the list. Yes, a 3 level dip is beneficial for builds, but a 2 level fighter, 2 level paladin, or 3 level swashbuckler dip is also sometimes beneficial for particular builds.

I think you're refering to Knights being encouraged to Sword and Board. I'm AFB but I don't think anything prevents them from using a buckler+2 hander and getting that AC bonus.

[JaronK]

The Sword and Board abilities of the Knight are pretty pathetic (a very minor AC boost IIRC) so it's not that much encouragement.  Really, I don't see many interesting abilities in the knight other than Bulwark of Defense, which is mimicked by Thicket of Blades (acessable by two feats to the Fighter, Martial Study and Martial Stance, though perhaps another Martial Study is needed).  Other than that, what's so good about the Knight?  A quick review screams T5 to me, but I could be wrong... I've never seen it in action.  In the end it just looks like a lame version of the Crusader.

JaronK

[Kuroimaken]

The Sword and Board abilities of the Knight are pretty pathetic (a very minor AC boost IIRC) so it's not that much encouragement.  Really, I don't see many interesting abilities in the knight other than Bulwark of Defense, which is mimicked by Thicket of Blades (acessable by two feats to the Fighter, Martial Study and Martial Stance, though perhaps another Martial Study is needed).  Other than that, what's so good about the Knight?  A quick review screams T5 to me, but I could be wrong... I've never seen it in action.  In the end it just looks like a lame version of the Crusader.

JaronK

Having actually seen a Knight in action, I can say he's suckier than a Fighter when it comes to tanking, by virtue of being literally a meat wall that can't kill anything (and thus is not a threat). I'd put him below the Fighter.

[Braithwaite]

Um, the Knight is proficient with all Simple and Martial weapons hoss, and the Knight's class features are sometimes useful (like whenever you fight something that isn't mindless).

Knight abilities paladin can't match:
Mounted Combat + 3 bonus feats from a mediocre list. (honestly, the charge feats look best, and paladin can match with spells if he needs to)
Test of mettle (taunt)

Knight abilities that paladin can duplicate
Armor Mastery (can move standard in heavy armor--Not as good as pulling a magic warhorse out of your pocket
Bulwark of Defense/Vigilant defender (try to prevent opponents from getting by you)-- Easily mimicable by ToB feats
Impetuous Endurance/Fighting beyond death (situational defenses v saves and damage)--paladin has better defenses, Cha to saves, Fear immunity, disease immunity
Shield Ally (take hits for squishies)--Paladin has this on his spell list, Shield Other. Paladin version works from 30 feet away
Fighting Challenge--Smite Evil is almost as good.

Paladin abilities that knight can't duplicate:
low gear dependance--Paladin can craft magic weapons in campaigns where that ability is needed, or if his gear is taken he has a range of spells to allow him to hit opponents with DR.
Healing--best out of combat, but Knight can't do it
Turn undead-- not often usable by paladin, but can be strengthened with spells or can power feats.

Other notable abilities I see on the paladin spell list that knight can't duplicate:
Removing or countering adverse condition effects, Flight, damage spells, Passing through enemies to reach a boss, Telepathic communication, Buffs.

If paladin is 5, knight should be a 5.

[Nachofan99]

How do we get this thread (or at least the one page with the tier ratings) stickied? 

[Negative Zero]

On this particular forum, we rarely sticky important resources; we tend to put them in the Handy Links thread, or put them in the Handbooks subforum.

[Rejakor]

I see that Erudite got added to the list.

*glee*

[awaken DM golem]

The Generic Spellcaster ... if anything it should be Tier 0 ..... you can choose Class skills, saves, get bonus feats that allow for Early qualification to PrCs, and can select spells known from the cleric, druid, and sorcerer/wizard spell lists.... and choose how they are casting spells(as Divine or as Arcane) and choose a casting Attribute

seems like they beat any Tier 1 class

 

Right.
If you start with Sorceror
and add in any skills
and add in 5 bonus feats
and add in those extra crispy "feats"
... here you might be comparable to a Wizard ...

and you are basically an Earliest entry multiclasser
but you count the "classes" as just one class

then you have to say Mage Of The Arcane Order, is off limits,
and you have to say other PrCs are also completely off limits.
Sounds like Tier Zero to me.

[Negative Zero]

I say tier one. The biggest weakness of Sorcerer is that Spells Known is inferior to a spellbook, which is even more inferior than knowing your entire list. The other benefits are great, but not /that/ great.

[ErhnamDJ]

No, the biggest weakness of the sorcerer (and the generic spellcaster), is that half the time they're a spell level behind the big boys. Sure, kobolds can get around that. But the generic caster can't. He's level 3! Still only first level spells. Level 17! Yeah! Oh, shit, wait.

[juton]

Tier 0 is an optimized Incantrix or an Iot7V, a Planar Sheppard or a Cheater of Mystra. I can't believe people think that the Generic Caster is as strong as those out of the box. Sure, you might be able to take levels of those prestige classes with a Generic Caster, but a 20th level Generic Caster being stronger than a Incantrix is ludicrous.

[ErhnamDJ]

If we're looking at level twenty, I can't see how incantatrix could every top the cerebremancer. What's it do? Free metamagics? That's cool I guess. Cerebremancer has it too, though.

And Iot7V? What does that do? Use its immediate action for something that doesn't win the game? Uh, yeah, that's neat. I guess.

Planar Shepherd is clearly at the top, but wizard borkedness + all the extra tricks from psionics (here's looking at you, Gate + Fusion) comes in a close second.

[Bozwevial]

If we're looking at level twenty, I can't see how incantatrix could every top the cerebremancer. What's it do? Free metamagics? That's cool I guess. Cerebremancer has it too, though.

And Iot7V? What does that do? Use its immediate action for something that doesn't win the game? Uh, yeah, that's neat. I guess.

Planar Shepherd is clearly at the top, but wizard borkedness + all the extra tricks from psionics (here's looking at you, Gate + Fusion) comes in a close second.

Are we looking at the same Cerebremancer here? The one that's essentially an arcane/psionic Mystic Theurge? Because I see no class abilities that give free metamagics. Actually, I don't see class abilities at all other than the casting progression.

Iot7V: Yes, immunity to an AMF as an immediate action is simply terrible, isn't it. Especially with no caster levels lost.

[ErhnamDJ]

See those little lines on the side that say +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/ +1 level of existing manifesting class?

Yeah, there's your class features.

Cerebremetamagic gives out 'free' metamagic (it says a third level wizard can get a maximized magic missile with it, so it doesn't seem to be limited by the max level you can cast; it must mean you can't get a higher level base spell than normal, like a fifth level wizard using it to get polymorph). Sure, it takes a few power points. Ooh, big deal. The guy takes psiotheurgist too, so his caster level is in the sixties for his chosen school and discipline.

Again, he can get whatever he wants if he gates something in and uses fusion with it.