Tier System for Classes

[sonofzeal]

Ah good, because I do think the Tier system starts degenerating there.  For non-pro gamers, a lot of Tier 3 will overpower Tier 2 and even Tier 1 at those levels (frontloaded ToB especially).  Not that level 1 Wizards can't be powerful, just that they require some real skill to play well, while a lot of Tier 3 is pretty self-explanatory.

[JaronK]

Indeed, at level 6 the difference in raw power between 2 and 3 is much less, and the difference in versitility actually tends to favor the 3s.

JaronK

[Rejakor]

Morning gents.

I'm seeing some discussion on the erudite in this thread, and I thought i'd chip in with my two cents.

What hasn't been mentioned so far is that the erudite has the ability to convert arcane spells into psionic powers, and use them as if they were psionic powers.  Further, by spending xp he can learn the spells as if he was a psion picking from his psionic list. 

Erudites can cast a certain number of 'unique' powers per day - they don't prepare, and their spells known is equal to their spell list.  They just can cast only a certain number of that list per day.  This is like 'preparing as you go'.  This is Tier 1 in level of power, equal to the wizard.

Erudite Casting: 

Unique Powers per Day: An erudite manifests psionic powers, paying for each manifestation with an expenditure of power points. Unlike a psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day from the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level. Thus, a 1st-level erudite can manifest one unique power per day; however, the total number of powers he can manifest per day is limited only by his daily power points (that is, the erudite could manifest the unique power as many times per day as he has power points to pay for it). An erudite simply knows his powers; they are part of his repertoire. He does not need to prepare them, though he must get a good night's sleep to regain all spent power points the next day.

Erudites have an essentially unlimited spells-known list.  They spend XP to gain access to a spell, like an Archivist spends gold or roleplaying or whatever. 

Gaining Powers For An Erudite:

ADDING POWERS TO AN ERUDITE'S REPERTOIRE

In addition to learning new powers for gaining a level like other psionic classes, erudites can add new powers to their repertoires through several other methods. Powers Gained at a New Level: Erudites and other psionic characters perform a certain amount of personal meditation between adventures in an attempt to unlock latent mental abilities. Each time a psionic character attains a new level, he learns additional powers according to his class schedule.

An erudite learns two powers of his choice to add to his repertoire in this fashion. These represent powers unlocked through study, practice, and the accumulation of psionic lore. The two free powers must be of levels the erudite can manifest, and they cannot be from a select discipline list.

Exception: If a character with erudite levels gains at least as many levels in another psionic class as he has in his erudite class, he permanently loses the ability to add additional powers (above and beyond the two gained at each new erudite level) to his repertoire of powers known.

Learning Discipline Powers: An erudite can learn discipline powers only by directly learning a power from another's repertoire, learning it from a power stone, or taking the Expanded Knowledge feat (EPH 46). In any case, an erudite can learn a discipline-only power only if it is up to 1 level lower than the highest level power he can manifest.

No matter what the power's source, the character must first make mental contact (a process similar to addressing a power stone, requiring a Psicraft check against a DC of 15 + the highest-level power contained in the stone or the repertoire). He can make mental contact only with a willing psionic character or creature (unconscious creatures are considered willing, but not psionic characters under the effects of other immobilizing conditions). Mental contact requires 1 round of physical contact. Once mental contact is achieved, the erudite becomes aware of all the powers stored in the power stone or all the powers known by the target up to the highest level of power the erudite knows himself (if the powers' host fails a Will save [DC 13 + erudite's Int bonus]).

Next, the erudite must make a Psicraft check (DC 15 + power's level) for each power he is trying to learn to see if he understands that power. If the selected power is not on his class list or on any of the select discipline lists, he automatically fails this check.

If the check fails, the erudite cannot understand, manifest, or learn the power. He cannot attempt to manifest or learn it again, even if he studies it from another source, until he gains another rank in Psicraft. If the power was being learned from a power stone, it does not vanish from the stone.

If the check succeeds, the erudite understands the selected power. He can attempt to manifest the power normally on his next turn, as described in Expanded Psionics Handbook, or he can attempt to permanently commit the power to his own repertoire.

Committing the Power to Repertoire: Once an erudite understands a new power through the procedure of contact described above, he can learn it, permanently adding it to his repertoire.

Physical Requirements: The erudite doesn't need to keep the power stone or other psionic source nearby while he fixes the candidate power in his repertoire. However, should he manifest any other power during the time requirement, he loses focus on the power to be added, forgoing the chance to learn that power until he gains at least one more rank in Psicraft.

Time: The process requires 8 hours, regardless of the power's level. During those 8 hours, the erudite must remain in meditation.

XP Cost: To permanently learn a new power that is not one of the powers he learns automatically when gaining a level, he must expend 20 experience points per erudite level, which are deducted from the character at the end of the meditation. At that time, the erudite permanently knows the power and it is in his repertoire just like any other power he knows. An erudite cannot expend so much XP that he would lose a level. If he doesn't have enough XP to spend on learning a power, he can't learn it until he gains more XP.

An erudite does not have to pay the costs in time or XP for the powers he gains for free at each new level. He adds them to his repertoire as part of his ongoing meditation.

Other Considerations: In most cases, psionic characters or creatures charge a fee to erudites for the privilege of learning powers from their repertoires. This fee is usually equal to the power's level x 50 gp, though many jealously guard their higher-level powers and charge much more (or deny access to them altogether). Erudites friendly to one another often trade access to equal-level powers from their repertoires at no cost.

If an erudite learns a power from a psionic character or creature, the process leaves the target's repertoire unharmed. A power learned from a power stone disappears from the stone.

Erudites can turn arcane spells into psionic powers.  Psionic powers are more flexible than spells, even those cast by a sorcerer.  Power points are more versatile than spell-slots.  In some campaigns, psionic powers go straight through SR and PR is a lot rarer than SR.  This is how a erudite can turn spells into powers:

Convert Spell To Power: 

Convert Spell to Power

Your training has included basic magical theory as well as the usual psionic training.

Replaces: You lose your 1st-level bonus feat.

Benefit: You add Spellcraft to your class skill list, which allows you to attempt to convert an arcane spell into a power you can add to your repertoire. You treat the spell as a discipline power for the basis of learning it, and you must first succeed on a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell's level) and then a Psicraft check as per the normal rules of learning a discipline power (see page 154 of Complete Psionic).

Each spell costs a certain number of power points to manifest. The higher the level of the spell, the more power points it costs. The table below describes each spell's cost.

Note: If this system intrigues you, you can see a spell point variant system starting on page 153 of Unearthed Arcana.
Spell
Level    Power
Point
Cost
0    0*
1    1
2    3
3    5
4    7
5    9
6    11
7    13
8    15
9    17

* 0-level spells cost no power points to manifest. Instead you may manifest a number of 0-level spells each day equal to three + the number of power points gained by that class at 1st level.

The erudite uses her manifester level for determining the effects of the spell being manifested, with one significant exception. Spells that deal a number of dice of damage based on caster level (such as magic missile,searing light, or lightning bolt) deal damage as if cast by a character of the minimum level of the class capable of casting the spell. Spells whose damage is partially based on caster level, but that don't deal a number of dice of damage based on caster level (such as produce flame or an inflict spell) use the erudite's normal manifester level to determine damage. Use the erudite's normal manifester level for all other effects, including range and duration.

For example, a fireball deals a number of dice of damage based on the erudite's manifester level, so when manifested it deals 5d6 points of damage (as if cast by a 5th-level wizard, which is the minimum level of wizard capable of casting fireball).

An erudite can pay additional power points to augment the dice of damage dealt by a spell. Every 1 extra power point spent at the time of manifesting increases the spell's effective caster level by 1 for purposes of dealing damage. The damage-dealing spell's caster level cannot be increased above the erudite's manifester level, or above the normal maximum allowed by the spell.

For example, even at 7th level, our erudite's lightning bolts deal only 5d6 points of damage (just like a 5th-level wizard) unless she spends extra power points. If she spends 1 extra power point (making the lightning bolt cost 6 points rather than 5), the spell deals 6d6 points of damage. A second extra power point would increase the damage to 7d6 points, but she can't spend more points than this, since her manifester level is only 7th. Were she 10th level or higher, she could spend a maximum of 5 extra power points on this spell, raising the damage up to 10d6, the maximum allowed for a lightning bolt spell.

Similarly, her magic missile spell shoots only one missile unless she spends extra power points. An extra 2 power points increases the caster level from 1st to 3rd, granting her one additional missile. She can spend a maximum of 6 additional power points in this manner, increasing her effective caster level to 7th for damage purposes and granting her a total of four missiles. If she were 9th level or higher, she could spend a maximum of 8 extra power points, granting her five missiles (just like a 9th-level caster).

Spells that allow a character to recall or recast a spell cannot be learned.

Because the spells are now effectively psionic powers, they are no longer affected by metamagic feats. However, metapsionic feats can affect them as they would a psionic power.

As with casting a spell, manifesting a spell may require certain components (see page 174 of the Player's Handbook). Some of the components remain unchanged, such as verbal, somatic, and XP cost. Spells with expensive material components (non-negligible) require you to spend an additional 2 power points when manifesting the spell in lieu of the material components. If you happen to have the material components, no additional power point cost is assessed. Spells with a focus are treated the same as those with a material component. If the spell has an expensive material component and a focus, the additional power point cost would be 4.

The erudite class can be found here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060406b&page=1

The alternative erudite feature can be found here:  http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a

I hope I helped to clarify a few things. 

-R

[awaken DM golem]

Magewright Spell List
Intelligence-based Prepared Arcane Spells(Eb p256) (RoE p191)
0th Level
Arcane Mark(PH201 p201) – Inscribes a personal rune (visible or invisible).
Detect Magic(PH p219) – Detects spells and magic items within 60’.
Light(PH p248) – Object shines like a torch.
Mage Hand(PH p249) – 5 pound telekinesis.
Mending(PH p253) – Makes minor repairs on an object.
Message(PH p253) – Whispered conversation at distance.
Open/Close(PH p258) – Opens or closes small or light things.
Prestidigitation(PH p264) – Performs minor tricks.
Read Magic(PH p269) – Reads scrolls and spellbooks.
1st Level
Alarm(PH p197) – Wards an area for 2 hours per level.
Animate Rope(PH p199) – Makes a rope move at your command.
Comprehend Languages(PH p212) – You understand all spoken and written languages.
Erase(PH p227) – Mundane or magical writing vanishes.
Hold Portal(PH p241) – Holds one door shut.
Identify(PH p243) – Determines properties of a magic item.
Magecraft(Eb p113) – +5 Competence bonus on one Craft check.
Mount(PH p256) – Summons riding horse for 2 hours per level.
Nystul’s Magic Aura(PH p257) – Alters object’s magic aura.
Tenser’s Floating Disk(PH p294) – 3’ diameter horizontal disk that holds 100 pounds per level.
Unseen Servant(PH p297) – Invisible force obeys your commands.
2nd Level
Arcane Lock(PH p200) – Magically locks a portal or chest.
Augury(PH p202) – Leans whether an action will be good or bad.
Leomund’s Trap(PH p247) – Makes one item seem trapped.
Locate Object(PH p249) – Senses direction toward object (specific or type).
Magic Mouth(PH p251) – Speaks once when triggered.
Make Whole(PH p252) – Repairs an object.
Misdirection(PH p254) – Misleads divinations for one  creature or object.
Obscure Object(PH p258) – Masks object against scrying.
Unseen Crafter(RoE p191) – Invisible force obeys your command and can use the Craft skill.
Whispering Wind(PH p301) – Sends a short message one mile per level.
3rd Level
Arcane Sight(PH p201) – Magical auras become visible to you.
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance(PH p209) – Hear or see at a distance for 1 minute per level.
Daylight(PH p216) – 60’ radius of bright light.
Dispel Magic(PH p223)(PHe)+ – Cancels magical spells and effects.
Explosive Runes(PH p228) – Deals 6d6 damage when read.
Gentle Repose(PH p234) – Preserves one corpse.
Glyph of Warding(PH p236) – Inscription harms those who pass it.
Illusory Script(PH p243) – Only intended reader can decipher.
Nondetection(PH p257) – Hides subject from divination and scrying.
Phantom Steed(PH p260) – Magical horse appears for 1 hour per level.
Secret Page(PH p275) – Changes one page to hide its real contents.
Sepia Snake Sigil(PH p276) – Creates text symbol that immobilizes reader.
Tongues(PH p294) – Speak any language.
4th Level
Animate Dead(PH p198) – Creates undead skeletons and zombies.
Detect Scrying(PH p219) – Alerts you to magical eavesdropping.
Divination(PH p224) – Provides useful advice for specific proposed actions.
Fire Trap(PH p231) – Opened object deals 1d4 + 1 per level fire damage.
Hardening(Eb p112) – Item’s Hardness increases by 1 per 2 levels.
Illusory Wall(PH p243) – Wall, floor, or ceiling looks real, but anything can pass through.
Imbue with Spell Ability(PH p243) – Transfer spells to subject.
Locate Creature(PH p249) – Indicates direction to familiar creature.
Minor Creation(PH p253) – Creates one cloth or wood object.
Remove Curse(PH p270) – Frees person or object from a curse.
Scrying(PH p274)(PHe)+ – Spies on subject from a distance.
Stone Shape(PH p284)(PHe)+ – Sculpts stone into any shape.
5th Level
Contact Other Plane(PH p212) – Lets you ask question of an extraplanar entity.
Fabricate(PH p229) – Transforms raw materials into finished items.
False Vision(PH p229) – Fools scrying with an illusion.
Leomund’s Secret Chest(PH p247) – Hides expensive chest on Ethereal Plane; you retrieve it at will.
Major Creation(PH p252) – As Minor Creation, plus stone and metal.
Permanency(PH p259) – Makes certain spells permanent.
Sending(PH p275) – Delivers a short message anywhere, instantly.
Symbol of Pain(PH p290) – Triggered rune wracks nearby creatures with pain.
Symbol of Sleep(PH p291) – Triggered rune puts nearby creatures into a catatonic slumber.
Wall of Stone(PH p299) – Creates a stone wall that can be shaped.

Tier 6 unless you are a genius.
(apologies , I always wanted the list somewhere)

[The_Mad_Linguist]

What do you mean?  A magewright has contact other plane, wall of stone, and minor creation.  That's enough to beat a fighter.

They can also pull off the barrel of explosive runes trick as well.

[dark_hound]

one question.  Why is the adept in tier 4?  What am I missing?

[Sinfire Titan]

one question.  Why is the adept in tier 4?  What am I missing?

It's a spellcaster with a decent spell list. In all actuality, it has the spells needed to be a viable party member, but it's abilities are somewhat more limited than those of equal level (still, it is very capable in spite of it's limitations).

Oddly, both the Magewright and Adept are more viable party members than the Truenamer.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

one question.  Why is the adept in tier 4?  What am I missing?

It has spell list with access to polymorph.

[woodenbandman]

Doesn't that make it automatically above the fighter? Or is it tier 4 because of the lateness of its spells received?

[rubberduck]

i have seen several attempts of different individuals to make those "tier1-x" threads...
and i am still wondering what purpose does it have?

i just don't get the point

[The_Mad_Linguist]

i have seen several attempts of different individuals to make those "tier1-x" threads...
and i am still wondering what purpose does it have?

i just don't get the point

It helps give a general guide on what the power levels of classes are, relative to one another. 

So you don't say "Oh, hey, a warmage.  That sounds sweet", and have no forewarning.

[awaken DM golem]

SinFire - yeah, but that spell list is not enough, during levels 1 thru 7.
Sure the 3rd+ level spell list is good enough; but does it cover the suckitude before then ?
Even the Eberron fluff says most Magewrights just take 1 level of it.
I can see the only CO use being 1 level for the list. (heh)
How many Magewrights make it to level 8 ??

(... just thinking out loud here ...)

[rubberduck]

i see... but should we not consider the levels?
you know basically:
wizards start out weak but grow really powerful
while
fighters start out strong but in the end are weak?

it is a big difference in which levels a game will take place

[JaronK]

I was primarily considering levels 6-15 when I wrote this, with secondary nods to 1-5 and then finally to 16-20, because that's roughly how I see people playing.  Wizards don't really start weak though... Colorspray, Alter Self, Grease, and Glitterdust are all low level spells that are extremely effective.

The basic point of this (as is written in the FAQ) is so that parties can be more internally balanced.  I got sick of seeing one person playing a Druid while someone else played a Fighter with the result being that the Fighter player started feeling like he didn't even know why he was even in the party.  If you can see in advance what the relative power levels are, you can decide to balance your party's classes so that they're all reasonably close... or, if a DM sees his party is very unbalanced, he can skew things to help out the weaker players.

And yes, the Adept is Tier 4 because he's got a few very nice powerful spells, but he gets them pretty late and is clearly weaker than Beguilers and Dread Necromancers, while also being clearly stronger than Healers (until they get Gate of course, but that's only at the very end levels).

[rubberduck]

that somehow assumes that the charakters and the different classes are somehow meant to compete to each other...
but that's entirely wrong there are meant to complement each other

of course at the higher levels ...
a wizard is someone who can call in heavy support that would put the fighter to shame and bend reality to his will
while
a fighter is still just someone who can just hit people in the face with a sword. hard.

but at the lower ones it's really usefull to have a meatshield between you and the orc with the greataxe. cause one good hit and the wizard is dead meat
(sure you can buff yourself o compete with the fighter and be even better than he is but you cant do it every time... while a fullplate always works ;-) )

i somehow feeling that this tier class thing is basically:

stop don't play a Fighter they suck!
nor Monk, CA Ninja, Healer, Swashbuckler... suck too
play a caster instead!

[Negative Zero]

You're right. This tier list is evil. Tiers don't exist! We should all go sing Kumbaya around the campfire and hold hands, Artificer and Healer alike!

Seriously, though, that's the same fallacy that seems to show up everywhere the word 'tiers' appears. The tier list is not an essay trying to convince you not to play a Commoner. It's just a resource for players and DMs so that they know that if they want to contribute to the party, or they want to have a balanced party, that a Commoner or a pure Fighter will probably not be as good as a Cleric. 

Anyway, the fact that the characters are 'meant' to complement each other doesn't necessarily mean they do. If I had to choose between a party of two Druids and two Wizards, and a Wizard/Cleric/Fighter/Rogue party, I'd probably choose the former.

Tires don exits!

[woodenbandman]

Technically it's not "don't play a fighter they suck," but rather "Don't play a fighter if the rest of the group is druids."

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Or: who needs the most sweet custom items to keep up.

[veekie]

that somehow assumes that the charakters and the different classes are somehow meant to compete to each other...
but that's entirely wrong there are meant to complement each other

of course at the higher levels ...
a wizard is someone who can call in heavy support that would put the fighter to shame and bend reality to his will
while
a fighter is still just someone who can just hit people in the face with a sword. hard.

but at the lower ones it's really usefull to have a meatshield between you and the orc with the greataxe. cause one good hit and the wizard is dead meat
(sure you can buff yourself o compete with the fighter and be even better than he is but you cant do it every time... while a fullplate always works ;-) )

i somehow feeling that this tier class thing is basically:

stop don't play a Fighter they suck!
nor Monk, CA Ninja, Healer, Swashbuckler... suck too
play a caster instead!

Hardly, with the Tier system, you'd know what's best to apply in a game so you can both contribute and avoid crushinating the rest of the party. Tier 3 seems to be the socially acceptable middle ground in most, so if you're playing a higher tier class in a low tier party, exercise some restraint. Keep one or two of your uber tricks in the bag in case of a TPK scenario and otherwise function below peak so the others get to shine as well.

Of course, some of the high tier classes(like wizard), give you a lot of rope to hang yourself with, so the tier system assumes basic optimisation ability, at the least.

[Bozwevial]

that somehow assumes that the charakters and the different classes are somehow meant to compete to each other...
but that's entirely wrong there are meant to complement each other

This is what the original premise of the classes was. However, the designers managed to fumble that. Spellcasters have the ability to flatten encounters, make no mistake (well...most of them. Sorry, Healer, wait until you get Gate).

The real purpose of this list is ultimately the same reason we play D&D: To have fun. If you're the one tossing around Grease, Enervation, Time Stop, whatever you want, that's pretty fun. If you're the one dealing 1d8+whatever points of damage on each attack, however, that's less fun.

Tiers are designed so that you know approximately what power level your group is at, and how to adjust accordingly so that you're neither completely useless nor tremendously overpowering. It's also useful for DMs, who can rectify power imbalances among the group via PrCs/items/whatever, and who can figure out what appropriate challenges would be. A balor is a real problem for a fighter (who likely depends on melee, which the balor is going to avoid in favor of using its SLAs), but a wizard could probably blow it up with a few evocation spells without breaking a sweat. And that's not even the most optimized thing he could do.