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InnaBinder
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« Reply #300 on: April 01, 2009, 06:52:57 PM » |
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The xp bonii/penalty thing... Bonuses. Bonii is not a word. Neither is boni. Or bonai. ...Sorry, but that irritates me. Same with rouges and rogues, and "irreguardless" or some variation thereof. Indeed. To the best of my knowledge, bonus isn't a latin word. Yes. It is. |
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Winning an argument on the internet is like winning in the Special Olympics. You won, but you're still retarded. I made a Handbook!? |
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Lycanthromancer
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« Reply #301 on: April 01, 2009, 07:40:55 PM » |
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Unlike octopus (which can be either octopusses or octopi), bonus doesn't sit in the 'ends with an i' plurality.
And that's your horoscope grammar lesson for today.
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jameswilliamogle
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« Reply #302 on: April 01, 2009, 07:49:14 PM » |
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Irreguardless, I consider it bonii that so many people saw it  . |
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Lycanthromancer
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« Reply #303 on: April 01, 2009, 07:59:50 PM » |
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Irreguardless, I consider it bonii that so many people saw it . ... |
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The_Mad_Linguist
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« Reply #304 on: April 01, 2009, 08:16:24 PM » |
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Unlike octopus (which can be either octopusses or octopi), bonus doesn't sit in the 'ends with an i' plurality. Although technically the proper plural is "octopodes". |
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Bauglir
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« Reply #305 on: April 01, 2009, 08:18:53 PM » |
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Dammit, The_Mad_Linguist!
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So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.
In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.
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Kuroimaken
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« Reply #306 on: April 01, 2009, 09:33:49 PM » |
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The xp bonii/penalty thing... Bonuses. Bonii is not a word. Neither is boni. Or bonai. ...Sorry, but that irritates me. Same with rouges and rogues, and "irreguardless" or some variation thereof. Indeed. To the best of my knowledge, bonus isn't a latin word. Yes. It is. Nope. And here's why: actual Latin words are pluralized the same in EVERY language. Bonus, for example, is pluralized in Portuguese with no alteration whatsoever since articles such as 'the' in Portuguese can define the plural of a noun. |
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jameswilliamogle
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« Reply #307 on: April 01, 2009, 09:36:33 PM » |
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Anyways...
Does anyone have another method for adjusting ECL by Tiers?
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awaken DM golem
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« Reply #308 on: April 02, 2009, 04:45:18 PM » |
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One of T_G's threads had the data on CR and average monster stats for each level.
Eyeballing it,
Saves went up like a good save on all three
Hit Points went up 12.5 hp per CR, or two d12 levels with 2 levels per cr.
BAB went up slower ... I don't remember a pattern.
So ...
Dragon Racial Class Level is about 1/2 a CR level.
Maybe this is a very rough starting point.
Feels about Tier 4, excepting the Level 4+ spells of an Adept.
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Operation Shoestring
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« Reply #309 on: April 04, 2009, 01:27:54 AM » |
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could someone please put the MOI classes on the list?
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sonofzeal
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« Reply #310 on: April 04, 2009, 11:51:27 AM » |
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Anyways...
Does anyone have another method for adjusting ECL by Tiers?
It might be possible to make Tier 1 and possibly 2 classes into, effectively, 20 level PrCs. Wizard might have the requirement of "Character level two, and has spent at least a year studying arcane magic". |
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jameswilliamogle
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« Reply #311 on: April 04, 2009, 12:54:47 PM » |
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could someone please put the MOI classes on the list?
Incarnate and Totemist are both Tier 3 at best, Soulborn is weak Tier 4. (Has anyone rated these already? Its kind of obvious, though, once you think about it. Almost no generalist or melee'ist is going to be Tier 1-2, and Soulborn is just a weak hybrid en par with the Fighter or even lower.) |
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juton
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« Reply #312 on: April 04, 2009, 05:13:05 PM » |
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Anyways...
Does anyone have another method for adjusting ECL by Tiers?
It might be possible to make Tier 1 and possibly 2 classes into, effectively, 20 level PrCs. Wizard might have the requirement of "Character level two, and has spent at least a year studying arcane magic". I was thinking along similar lines. How many Wizard levels can an Gish lose and still be Tier 1? A 20th level character casting 6th level spells sounds pretty Tier 3 to me, 7th and 8th level Wizard spells seems about a Tier 2 to me because to be Tier 1 you need the firepower of the highest level spells. Another important thing is do we want to balance characters or do we want to balance Tiers? Balancing characters is potentially easier, just limit casting levels. To balance Tier you have to take a premade build and nerf/buff it so that at any particular point in the campaign it's around Tier 3 (or whatever). |
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woodenbandman
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« Reply #313 on: April 04, 2009, 05:23:52 PM » |
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A gish can afford to lose 3 caster levels and still be tier 1, but they're a weak tier 1 because the other tiers have more spells than they do. Exception: A black ethergaunt probably gets more spells than a straight wizard 20 because they have Int 20 points higher, and get a ton more bonus spells.
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Operation Shoestring
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« Reply #314 on: April 04, 2009, 09:04:59 PM » |
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A gish can afford to lose 3 caster levels and still be tier 1, but they're a weak tier 1 because the other tiers have more spells than they do. Exception: A black ethergaunt probably gets more spells than a straight wizard 20 because they have Int 20 points higher, and get a ton more bonus spells.
Don't they start at epic? 20+ Racial hitdie and +4 LA? |
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woodenbandman
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« Reply #315 on: April 04, 2009, 09:27:23 PM » |
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16 racial hit dice, I believe. And 17th level Wizard casting. Could be wrong though.
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awaken DM golem
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« Reply #316 on: April 05, 2009, 04:22:05 PM » |
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Juton
I was thinking a Cohort Tier 1 might be a filter of sorts.
A Cohort costs 1 feat slot, and a smidge of Charisma, to be one full spell level down on a "normal" build.
If the cohort absorbs ~all of the cost of being a cohort, you get:
Tier 2 = Wizard or Cleric or Druid 17 , down a feat and the 2 cha points , and some behavior restraints (from being a cohort)
Comparing that to Psionics ...
Ardent keep up or is ahead slightly on the casting , down one feat for the ML casting trick , doesn't need CHA , gets a UMD thingy , not a cohort.
Ardent is slightly stronger than a Cohort Tier 1 = about Tier 2
Wilder gets less than 1/2 the total spells known , down multiple feats to eliminate class weaknesses, more a Glass Cannon than a caster.
Wilder is weaker than a Cohort Tier 1 = with recharge is Tier 2 ; most likely a Tier 3 ; poorly build and played is even worse.
Wilder is a difficult class , in terms of how difficult it is to wade through Artificer and figure what to do.
Wilder might be the "worst" 9th level caster class.
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InnaBinder
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« Reply #317 on: April 05, 2009, 04:28:28 PM » |
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Wilder might be the "worst" 9th level caster class. Worse than Healer or Battle Sorcerer? I'm not necessarily debating, but curious if those were included in your comparisons. |
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Winning an argument on the internet is like winning in the Special Olympics. You won, but you're still retarded. I made a Handbook!? |
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juton
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« Reply #318 on: April 05, 2009, 04:36:26 PM » |
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Wilder might be the "worst" 9th level caster class. Worse than Healer or Battle Sorcerer? I'm not necessarily debating, but curious if those were included in your comparisons. Beat me to the punch, raw power isn't enough, you need versatility. I think a wilder is actually weaker than a Battle Sorcerer, at 20th level the BSorc gets 25 spells known, the Wilder only gets 11. Healer, it doesn't matter how many ways you can heal, your still a one trick pony. Then there's the Warmage... Edit: Getting back on topic, slowing/advancing character progression seems like the best way to balance the Tiers. The XP multiplier up thread is a good idea, but a little math heavy, maybe we could do something similar by borrowing the bloodline mechanic, basically a scaling LA. I'm not sure we can do it the opposite, giving full Monks a negative LA allows for all sorts of wierdness, like what happens when you run out of pre-epic levels, and your Monk having higher skill checks for some skill then your Factotum. |
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« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 04:42:16 PM by juton »
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Operation Shoestring
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« Reply #319 on: April 05, 2009, 07:20:46 PM » |
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Wilder might be the "worst" 9th level caster class. Worse than Healer or Battle Sorcerer? I'm not necessarily debating, but curious if those were included in your comparisons. Beat me to the punch, raw power isn't enough, you need versatility. I think a wilder is actually weaker than a Battle Sorcerer, at 20th level the BSorc gets 25 spells known, the Wilder only gets 11. Healer, it doesn't matter how many ways you can heal, your still a one trick pony. Then there's the Warmage... Edit: Getting back on topic, slowing/advancing character progression seems like the best way to balance the Tiers. The XP multiplier up thread is a good idea, but a little math heavy, maybe we could do something similar by borrowing the bloodline mechanic, basically a scaling LA. I'm not sure we can do it the opposite, giving full Monks a negative LA allows for all sorts of wierdness, like what happens when you run out of pre-epic levels, and your Monk having higher skill checks for some skill then your Factotum. The healer's cruddy list can be improved by PrC's. Wilders don't get that option. |
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