Tier System for Classes

[Operation Shoestring]

My list would be Bardic knack, Improvisation (SpC), Song of the Heart (Eberron CS), Inspirational boost (Champ. Valor), Vest of Legends (DMG or DMG2), various Masterwork Instrument Bonuses (C. Adventurer) and Heroes's Badge (MIC)

[woodenbandman]

Big Important Post

Somebody please confirm or deny the existance of what I'm about to describe:

We need an equation to determine the CR of a party based on the tiers of a party as a function of their level. So, a level 10 Archivist is a CR 12 or whatever, or a 4th level fighter is a CR 2. The point being for people who don't know their party yet they need a way to calculate the party's CR as a whole then apply that to the difficulty level of a fight that they can deal with. A party with X amount of CR can take a fight with a CR of X+y. The problem with this being that A: CR and tiers are a bit subjective and B: the CR system is a bit bork'd. But I'm sure that there's a freakin' solution. We just need to find it.

[jameswilliamogle]

Big Important Post

Somebody please confirm or deny the existance of what I'm about to describe:

We need an equation to determine the CR of a party based on the tiers of a party as a function of their level. So, a level 10 Archivist is a CR 12 or whatever, or a 4th level fighter is a CR 2. The point being for people who don't know their party yet they need a way to calculate the party's CR as a whole then apply that to the difficulty level of a fight that they can deal with. A party with X amount of CR can take a fight with a CR of X+y. The problem with this being that A: CR and tiers are a bit subjective and B: the CR system is a bit bork'd. But I'm sure that there's a freakin' solution. We just need to find it.

GREAT idea!  I don't know that there's one out there.

Along the same lines, one could apply XP penalties to top-tier classes, too.  Does anyone remember 1st ed AD&D XP tables?  The Rogue advanced faster than any other class (then Assasin, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Illusionist, Wizard, Barbarian, I think in that order).  Something like this would also work to keep power in-line (though it obviously needs modification, since Clerics are too strong).

So, a simple solution is to apply a 10% XP penalty on Tier 1, 5% Tier 2, 0 Tier 3, +5% XP bonus Tier 4, +10% bonus Tier 5, +15% bonus Tier 6.

The trick is to always calculate the party's ECL based on the Tier 3's, though (otherwise the XP will end up being the same).

[Takanaki]

XP penalties are seriously crude things to use. They do very little other than messing up the levels within a party. 

How about something like..
Tier 1 = x1.4 CR
Tier 2 = x1.2 CR
Tier 3 = x1.0 CR
Tier 4 = x0.8CR
Tier 5 = x0.6
Tier 6 = x0.4

and so on.

10th level Wizard becomes CR14. 10th level fighter counts as CR6 at tier 5. Might not be perfect but something along those lines seems ok-ish to me.

[jameswilliamogle]

Whether its a XP penalty or a CR adjustment it ends up being the same thing, lol.  The lower tiers end up leveling faster than the higher tiers, and an eventual "balance point" comes out where the high tiers are essentially leveling like +LA classes.

EDIT: Ah, I see... you guys are talking about party-wide adjustments.  I'm two thumbs down on that idea, personally, but I'm not angry about it or anything.

[Takanaki]

One is against the party rather than individuals though.

[jameswilliamogle]

One is against the party rather than individuals though.

Oh, I don't like that.  Essentially that means the Fighters are punished for having a Wizard in the party.  They don't get any benefit for it (other than having a Wizard).

I like the individual adjustment ideas better, b/c the Fighter will still feel useful compared to the casters in later levels (where in the party-wide adjustment the lower tier classes are still weaker than the casters by virtue of their class sucking).  I also like the XP bonus/penalty idea b/c thats less work for the DM  .

EDIT: This idea could really derail this thread; maybe a new thread?

[Soda]

I was thinking that say if the party was 10th level, they'd all receive XP as 10th level and level when they had enough for 11th.

So the party of Wizard 8, Fighter 12, Warblade 10 would all count as 10th level, getting the same XP, and leveling at the same time.

[jameswilliamogle]

I was thinking that say if the party was 10th level, they'd all receive XP as 10th level and level when they had enough for 11th.

So the party of Wizard 8, Fighter 12, Warblade 10 would all count as 10th level, getting the same XP, and leveling at the same time.

The xp bonii/penalty thing that I proposed does this (as would the individual ECL calc's), but they're talking about something like:

A party of a Wizard, Cleric, Fighter, and Rogue.  Thats 2 x Tier 1, 2 x Tier 4 (I think).  So at 10th their party ECL is (10 x 1.4 + 10 x 1.4 + 10 x 0.8 + 10 x 0.8 ) / 4 = 11. 

So they all gain XP as ECL 11.  The party would all be the same level, but the uselessness of the Rogue and Fighter compared to the usefulness of the Wizard and Cleric hasn't been addressed. 

This does give balanced ECL for what monsters they should face, though.

EDIT: apparently the number 8 followed by a ) is a smiley.

[Soda]

Here's a drawing of what I was thinking:

T1   T2   T3   T4   T5
1    1    1    1    1
2    2    2    2    2
3    3    3    3    3
4    4    4    4    4
5    5    5    5    5
5    6    6    6    7
6    6    7    8    8
7    7    8    9    9
8    8    9    10   10
9    9    10   11   11
10   10   11   12   12
10   11   12   13   14
11   12   13   14   15
12   12   14   16   16
13   13   15   17   17
14   14   16   18   18
15   15   17   19   19
15   16   18   20   21
16   17   19   21   22
17   18   20   22   23

Basically every so often, high tier classes don't level, while low tier classes go up two levels at once.

Every five levels, 1st and 5th tier classes: + or - one level.
Every six levels, 2nd and 4th tier classes: + or - one level.

That's just the pattern I found most pleasing.

Paladin 23 is probably still no match for Wizard 17.
I don't know much about epic levels either. Is dipping into epic levels even a good idea?
Probably want to put tier 5 at least up to 24th for the feats, really.

[Kuroimaken]

Here's a drawing of what I was thinking:

T1   T2   T3   T4   T5
1    1    1    1    1
2    2    2    2    2
3    3    3    3    3
4    4    4    4    4
5    5    5    5    5
5    6    6    6    7
6    6    7    8    8
7    7    8    9    9
8    8    9    10   10
9    9    10   11   11
10   10   11   12   12
10   11   12   13   14
11   12   13   14   15
12   12   14   16   16
13   13   15   17   17
14   14   16   18   18
15   15   17   19   19
15   16   18   20   21
16   17   19   21   22
17   18   20   22   23

Basically every so often, high tier classes don't level, while low tier classes go up two levels at once.

Every five levels, 1st and 5th tier classes: + or - one level.
Every six levels, 2nd and 4th tier classes: + or - one level.


I don't know much about epic feats and such. How does a 23rd level fighter look against a wiz 17?

Ah, NOW I get it. I thought you meant as in what their CR should be considered for calculating XP, and then I thought "isn't that the other way around?".

[Soda]

I'm not a fan of the XP system at all.

The point of this, if I'm understanding: make the Druid's CR artificially high, so he gets less of a share of the XP than the Fighter.

I say: fuck that math.

My chart isn't great, but there ain't no math either.

"Ok, good job guys. Time to level.
Crusader, you go from 11 to 12.
Monk, you get two levels, 12 all the way to 14.
Sorcerer, you're up to 11 now.
Cleric, you're still at level 10 for one more adventure."


Of course, this might be a tough sell for groups who don't know the truth of the tier system.

[Tshern]

I believe that system can be proven unworkable with a single word: Blasphemy.

[jameswilliamogle]

I believe that system can be proven unworkable with a single word: Blasphemy.

True, but I think thats a flaw w/ Blasphemy et al.  Its been abusable for a long while.  Even then, a Pit Fiend should be a CR 20 encounter, which means in Soda's system the lowest level should be 17th, which would be weakened and dazed.  Not so bad, I think.

BTW, I just noticed this: on the Hypertext SRD, if you click one of the red numbers listed on a monster's entry, it auto-rolls a d20 and adds the modifiers.  Thats so cool!  When did they do that?  So useful!

[Akalsaris]

WOW!  That's really cool actually!  I always assumed it would link to some useless page when it was in red like that.

[woodenbandman]

Actually I wasn't trying to balance out a party just using some shitty math, I will deal with that on my own. I'm just trying to calculate the way a party functions so that I can hand out encounters of appropriate difficulty.

If a 10th level wizard is a CR 14, then he'd be a fair challenge, by the ad-hoc system jameswilliamoogle just posted, for a party of 4 martial adepts, level 10, because their tier is 3, meaning (level x 1.0) + 2 for each doubling of the number of monsters. A party of 4 martial adepts, level 10, and a single wizard, level 10, sound about matched under many conditions, assuming the wizard's using regular PC wealth to buy disposable stuff and using BfC spells and Polymorph, like a good little tier 1 wizard. Iron Heart Surge, with its OP goodness, could throw a monkey wrench into this, though.

This kinda might break down a bit, though, because a party of 4 wizards, level 10, is a CR 18, but a level 13 wizard is not really an appropriate challenge for these 4 wizards. This is due to action economy breakdown as well as rapidly scaling CR increases for straight multipliers. Maybe a system can be made where a character is balanced against a CR, but this one's a tiny bit off.

New CR system, anyone?

[jameswilliamogle]

That was Soda's system, actually (mine is the simple XP penalty / bonus depending on tier).  I think that the system does work well for balanced parties, though.  I'm more concerned about intra-party balance, though, as getting overshadowed by other players sucks worse than Hoover, and I think this works for that.

[JaronK]

I think this is all a pretty neat idea, really.  Quite clever.

JaronK

[Lycanthromancer]

The xp bonii/penalty thing...

Bonuses. Bonii is not a word. Neither is boni. Or bonai.

...Sorry, but that irritates me. Same with rouges and rogues, and "irreguardless" or some variation thereof.

[Kuroimaken]

The xp bonii/penalty thing...

Bonuses. Bonii is not a word. Neither is boni. Or bonai.

...Sorry, but that irritates me. Same with rouges and rogues, and "irreguardless" or some variation thereof.

Indeed. To the best of my knowledge, bonus isn't a latin word.