Tier System for Classes

[Kuroimaken]

Now, where would the Eidolon and the Eidoloncer slot in? (Ghostwalk base classes)

Both of those are fairly odd, because they're base classes you take when you get "template'd" into a ghost, and advance class features kinda the way PrCs do.

For the record, Eidolon is kinda like a Fighter with worse BAB, and Eidoloncer is kinda like a sorcerer. Both get access to ghost feats, though, and those seem fairly neat.

[JaronK]

I'd love to see this updated w/ Incarnum classes, Dragon Shaman, etc.

I'd love to as well, I just don't feel comfortable adding classes I know so little about.   Any class up there that's not in itallics is either something I've personally played or at least played in a few games with while also having looked over thoroughly.  If it's in itallics, I've looked it over a good bit and talked with plenty of people about it.  Anything else, I simply won't add, because it does a disservice and destroys the point of the system if I've got classes up there that I don't actually know about.

I'm not sure Expert belongs that low.  I base this opinion solely on the fact that every expert has UMD as a class skill.  And probably Autohypnosis simply because they can.  And Martial Lore or Truespeak if they wanted (does that make them better Truenamers than Truenamers?  something to consider ...)

Truenaming won't help... you'd need to take a bunch of feats to actually know any useful utterances, and there's really not many that are that great anyway.  Autohypnosis is indeed cool, as is Iajuitsu Focus.  If you look back a ways in this thread, I actually go over the position of all the skillmonkeys (except the CA Ninja, I forgot that one I think).  There you can see a good set of reasons for why they are where they are, including a long discussion on the Expert.  Sure, the Expert is good, but I think it's reasonable to put him at a level with the CA Ninja.  He's not as good as a Rogue, even with Autohypnosis and Iajuitsu Focus.  The Rogue's greater skill points, sneak attack, and special abilities are enough to put him a tier up on the Expert.  I'm not saying the Expert is a bad class, but it's not that strong either.

As for UMD, it's a potent skill... maybe.  It's totally campaign dependent, and really only viable at higher levels unless you're a Factotum or Cleric or some other class that can really spike up the checks, since you can't take 10.  If the DM gives you awesome wands and gives you full access to any magical gear you want, it can be top notch, but if it's harder to get the gear, the skill can become a total waste of points, and in between it's not that great either.  So, sometimes it's awesome, sometimes not, and I did factor that in. 

JaronK

[JaronK]

Now, where would the Eidolon and the Eidoloncer slot in? (Ghostwalk base classes)

Good question!  I've barely looked them over.  Not ready to put them in yet.

JaronK

[juton]

Past level 10 the Tier system is in full effect, but most of my campaigns never get past level 5. At these low levels how does the tier system work, are all the tiers closer together because of the smaller gap in power or are some classes just in higher tiers at the beginning?

[fliprushman]

Actually the tier system can cover all levels of play.  Wizards, even at lower levels, are still top tier because they can still do other characters jobs without much of the same muck those classes have to go through.  Ex. A 3rd level wizard can prepare Knock which allows him to open doors with a simple caster level check vs. the rogues open lock skill  which has a base DC of 20 and only gets more difficult from there.

[juton]

Actually the tier system can cover all levels of play.  Wizards, even at lower levels, are still top tier because they can still do other characters jobs without much of the same muck those classes have to go through.  Ex. A 3rd level wizard can prepare Knock which allows him to open doors with a simple caster level check vs. the rogues open lock skill  which has a base DC of 20 and only gets more difficult from there.

Would you say that the tiers are closer at lower levels then? For the first few levels Fighters can pull their weight and Rogues have so many options out of combat because the lack of magical counter measures, at least in the campaigns I play in.

[woodenbandman]

As for UMD, it's a potent skill... maybe.  It's totally campaign dependent, and really only viable at higher levels unless you're a Factotum or Cleric or some other class that can really spike up the checks, since you can't take 10.  If the DM gives you awesome wands and gives you full access to any magical gear you want, it can be top notch, but if it's harder to get the gear, the skill can become a total waste of points, and in between it's not that great either.  So, sometimes it's awesome, sometimes not, and I did factor that in. 

JaronK

Excuse me, sir, I believe that you have just described DnD. UMD is the least of any DM's worries. The most of a DM's worries are the characters who don't need to ask what spells they can prepare. So yeah, UMD is powerful, but the DM's not doing himself favors by denying a player's purchase, especially considering that there are innumerable better ways to break the game.

[Soda]

Would you say that the tiers are closer at lower levels then? For the first few levels Fighters can pull their weight and Rogues have so many options out of combat because the lack of magical counter measures, at least in the campaigns I play in.

I'd say this is true. At 5th level, magic starts to replace skills but not fully, and doesn't yet have the power to replace melee classes, lacking polymorph/divine power/persistent buffs. Spells have power, but not encounter trivializing power at this level.

Survivability and stamina play more of a role too. Casters don't have enough spells for endless encounters and can go down quick if they fall into a dangerous spot, where as Crusaders can take hits all day.

Overall, the tiers still hold up, but I agree the gap is lessened. Afterwards, magic becomes too much for melee to keep up with, very especially low tier melee. 6th level is the peak of interclass balance in 3.5, IMO.

[JaronK]

Past level 10 the Tier system is in full effect, but most of my campaigns never get past level 5. At these low levels how does the tier system work, are all the tiers closer together because of the smaller gap in power or are some classes just in higher tiers at the beginning?

I would say the Tiers are indeed closer together at lower levels, because part of what makes the stronger classes stronger is that they get exponentially stronger as you level up.  With that said, the system is pretty much accurate most of the time... Wizards can still launch Alter Self and Glitterdust at level 3, for example.  But a few classes are much stronger at low levels... Crusaders, Fighters, Dread Necromancers, and the like.   Some classes are quite front loaded which makes them much stronger than normal at level 1.  But within a couple levels it evens out.

That said, as I stated earlier, the Tier system is primarily considering levels 6-15, with 1-5 being second and 16-20 being the least important levels considered.  So there will be a few classes out of place if you're only considering level 5 and below.

@Woodenbandman:  There's a big difference between an ability where you have to hope the DM gives you something and an ability that's really powerful as long as the DM doesn't explicitly nerf it.  For example, Rebuke Undead is AWESOME if the DM throws a few Ghostly Visages your way... free Mindblank for the whole party and free save or dies every round from every party mate, yay!  But I'm not really considering that sort of thing.  What I am considering is the fact that you could use Create Undead to make a Bone Creature of whatever you're fighting and then Rebuke that.  That's something you can just do if the DM isn't nerfing it, as opposed to something where you hope the DM specifically gives you something to make it powerful.  Remember, much of this was written with the DM in mind, so that DMs would know the power level of the classes involved and could decide to power them up or weaken them.  A DM has to know that handing the Rogue free Wands of Lesser Vigor will be helping them out... I don't have to tell them that.

And I've definitely seen plenty of games where DMs just don't want a Ye Old Magic Marte for various reasons, which makes UMD much weaker.  When you can get what you want it's awesome, but when you can't, it's often pretty darn useless.

JaronK

[Akalsaris]

I'd say the tier system here is pretty much accurate for base classes levels 7-19, assuming no clever multi-classing/prestige classing.  Naturally, these are the levels where that is most common, so take that with a grain of salt.

As far as I see it, D&D classes are most "balanced" at around 3rd-4th level, since 3rd level spells are when spell-casters begin to really rock encounters instead of contribute a lot to them, and a lot of non-magical characters start their feat combos at 3rd level (point blank shot and precise shot, combat expertise and imp. trip, etc).  I don't think it's the most fun at that level, but it's probably the most balanced.

[Sunic_Flames]

Glitterdust. Web. Alter Self.

[JaronK]

Also Grease, Disguise Self, Charm Person, Silent Image, Lesser Vigor... and so on.

Note that a few classes actually get MUCH stronger at very high levels, and I didn't factor that in as much because most people don't play at such levels.  The Factotum, for example, gains the ability to cast tons of spells at level 19, as well as do all kinds of other things... he really becomes a Tier 2, if not Tier 1, class at that point.  The Healer suddenly goes from useless to having Gate at level 17.  The Truenamer is in a similar boat.

JaronK

[DavidWL]

What follows is a post arguing that, compared to the sorcerer, the beguiler is in pretty good shape, and should be Tier 2. 

In short,

• a sorcerer (pre-build) has lots of options, post-build, there are fewer.
• Also, a beguiler, levels 1-10 is, I think, a better sorcerer
• Finally, a beguiler get's UMD, huge skills, light armor usage, and actual class abilities

Example:

@ Level 1
Sorcerer spells known 2
- Possibly color spray or grease or sleep
- 1 other

Beguiler spells known 14! (many of the first rate spells)
- charm person, color spray, mage armor, obscuring mist, sleep, silent image  ... !

@ Level 4
Sorcerer knows 4 spells
- Grease, Color Spray, Sleep
- Alter Self

Beguiler knows 31 spells! (many of them first rate)
- charm person, color spray, mage armor, obscuring mist, sleep, silent image  ... !
- mirror image, fog cloud, touch of idiocy, minor image, silence ...

@ Level 8
Sorcerer (a random assortment of good picks - I used this thread to pick spells- http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=571861)
lvl1- Color Spray, Grease, Silent Image, Enlarge, Ray of Enfeeblement
lvl2- Alter Self, Rope Trick, Wings of Cover
lvl3- Haste, Dispel Magic
lvl4- Polymorph

Beguiler (once again ...):
lvl1- Color Spray, Charm Person, Mage Armor, Obscuring Mist, Silent Image, Sleep,  ... 7 others
lvl2- glitterdust, fog cloud, invisibility, mirror image, minor image, detect thoughts,  13 others
lvl3- Haste, Dispel Magic (the spells the sorcerer might pick) + 18 others
lvl4- Solid Fog, Charm Monster, Freedom of Movement, Greater Invisiblity, Greater Mirror Image, + 7 more

The beguiler is really much better than the sorcerer until about 11th level, just because it knows many more good spells.

My estimate:
Levels
1 - 7  Beguiler >> Sorcerer
8- 10 Beguiler > Sorcerer
11 - 20 Beguiler < Sorcerer

At the higher levels (~11 - 20), the beguiler still has more flexibility because of a much larger list of spells known, but the sorcerer starts to edge ahead in power because of the greater range of spells that he can choose to learn (Celerity, Arcane Spellsurge, Polymorph, ...).  However, this doesn't really start to be felt until 8th level (with Polymorph), and it still takes a few levels past that for the sorcerer to catch up.

The "problem" with the beguiler as compared to the sorcerer starts at the 5th level spells.  The beguilers list is ok (but many ok spells), the sorcerers list is quite good.  Later, at 7th level spells the sorcerer gets arcane spellsurge, doubling the spells he can cast.  etc.

When a beguiler gains a new level of spells, it gains *all* it's new spells.

For example, at level 18:
A sorcerer gains 1 9th level spell known.  (Timestop or Shapechange)

A beguiler gains 6 9th level spells.  (Not only the timestop that the sorcerer might get, but also Dominate Monster for a pet, Etherealness for virtually risk-free exploration, Foresight, etc.)

Because the beguiler doesn't give up spells known after 18th level, he can also do things like:

Beguiler 18/Wyrm Wizard 2, using Wyrm Wizard to learn Miracle.  He'll still know that massive list of spells.
Beguiler 18/Saint +2
Beguiler 19/Nightmare spinner (for extra spells slots).

Sorcerers aren't as flexible compared to beguilers:

You say of fighters:  "They're down in 4 because while the class as a whole is flexible, any given build is not"

I'd say that sorcerers have the same flaw - they can pull off some tricks that are disproportionately powerful for their level, but they can only know spells to do so many such tricks.  After that, it's about general utility, or a finite number of such tricks.

While I understand your "capable of doing one thing", I'd argue that any given beguiler can do at least as many things as any given sorcerer. 

General Opinions:

Psychic Warrior = Tier 3 (I agree)
Factotum    = Tier 3 (I agree, but hard call)

Best,
David

[DavidWL]

The Factotum, for example, gains the ability to cast tons of spells at level 19, as well as do all kinds of other things... he really becomes a Tier 2, if not Tier 1, class at that point. 

What is this "tons of spells" that the factotum gets at Level 19?  Is spell casting an "extraordinary class ability"?  If so, that is pretty awesome.

Best,
David

[kaiza]

It is, that's why you retain it when you wildshape, for instance.

k.

[JaronK]

What is this "tons of spells" that the factotum gets at Level 19?  Is spell casting an "extraordinary class ability"?  If so, that is pretty awesome.

Yup, Spellcasting is Ex (see MMV, though it's talked about in other areas too... MMV is most clear).  So yeah.  You can't memorize spells in the few moments you have, so you'll need to pick a spontaneous list, but a Factotum could temporarily have the casting of a Sorcerer or Beguiler or Dread Necromancer or Warmage or Favored Soul, for example.  Other fun options include all the bonus feats of a Fighter (it's one entry in the text) and the Manuevers of a ToB class.  It should also be noted that Spellcasting is an Ex Special Attack, making it something you get from Polymorph and Shapechange (hi there Solar, Black Ethergaunt).

Also, on Sorcerers:

The Sorcerer placement has always been a hard one for me.  The Tier 2 classes have all the raw power of the Tier 1 classes, but none of the flexibility... their flexibility is in fact often less than that of the Tier 3 classes.  At the same time, if you look at what they do when they go all out, they stomp all over the Tier 3s.  For example, a Sorcerer can cast Alter Self, which is better than anything an equal level Beguiler can pull off.  Spells like Gate and Shapechange and Planar Binding and Genesis and Explosive Runes and Shrink Item are far beyond anything that a Tier 3 class can do (okay, Dread Necromancers can cast Planar Binding, but that's it).

When I first made this Tier system, Tier 2 and 3 were merged, mostly for the reasons you stated.  But the simple fact is that the abilities that Sorcerers do have are just so much more powerful than the abilities of a Beguiler that they can really operate at a whole other level.  Now, you're absolutely right that Beguilers are more flexible, mostly.  But Sorcerers have absolutely world shattering power, and can full on break games wide open, while Beguilers are much less likely to do that, so in terms of things DMs should watch out for, Sorcerers are a much bigger issue than Beguilers.  That's why they're on their own Tier with Favored Souls and Psions... they're a much bigger balance issue than a Beguiler.  If you're playing a RAW game, you're FAR more likely to find yourself in a situation where you're saying "wait, you do WHAT?" to a Sorcerer than a Beguiler.  And unlike the Fighter, what the Sorcerer does doesn't make them a one trick pony.  Charging is one trick... Planar Binding is a whole heck of a lot of tricks.  Being able to do a lot of damage with arrows is one trick... Shapechanging into a Solar and casting as a 20th level Cleric is a heck of a lot of tricks.

But yes, you're absolutely correct that the Beguiler, and in fact most of the Tier 3 classes, is more flexible than the Tier 2 classes.  I really should make a special note of that point in the OP.  It's just that the available raw power of the Sorcerer is so much higher that I think it makes up for the reduced flexibility, and makes Sorcerers a much bigger issue from a balance standpoint.  After all, few people nerf Beguilers at all, whereas I'd say most people would nerf it so you can't Planar Bind Efreetis for endless wishes or use temporal Genesis or gain spells from Shapechange.  There's a good reason for that... Sorcerers need nerfing to be sane.  Beguilers basically don't.  And that says a lot.

JaronK

[DavidWL]

...Stuff ...

A fair reply - I think I just fundamentally didn't understand the distinction between tier 2 and tier 3.

Best,
David

[JaronK]

Yeah, I'm often bouncing around between them being the same tier and being different.  So I wasn't being quite clear with what I thought the difference was.  But in the end, I find it far more likely that a Sorcerer will do something that makes the party Rogue feel underpowered in the party than that the Beguiler will do such a thing.  If the Beguiler launches a Dominate Monster and controls someone, that's fine... a Rogue could have used Diplomacy.  Now, maybe the Beguiler is generally stronger, but he's not really blowing the Rogue away.  Meanwhile, if the Sorcerer is calling powerful demons with Planar Binding or making liberal use of other power spells, that can often result in the Rogue feeling useless by comparison.  Now, much of this system is designed so DMs can predict future balance issues, so that's why I ranked the Sorcerer higher.  The same goes for the Favored Soul and Psion.

Plus, as you say yourself, once you start getting up there in levels the Sorcerer really starts to take off.  Spells like Polymorph, Planar Binding, Shapechange, Genesis, Gate, and Celerity have no Beguiler equivalents unless the Beguiler goes into Shadowcraft Mage, but that's very heavy optimization indeed since it's argueably the strongest caster PrC out there.

JaronK

[X-Codes]

I'm going to hazard an opinon.  Out of all the tier 1 spellcasters, Druids have the weakest spell list.  The big powerhouse spells like shapechange and reverse gravity set them up for potential tier 1 greatness, but they really wouldn't be tier 1 unless they had great class abilities to back it up... and they do.  Spirit Shamans have solid class abilities to be sure, but just not on par with the Druid because of the specialized nature of them, and they further have their spellcasting a bit more restricted than the Druid's.  I feel that makes them a solid Tier 2, although if you pressed me I'd say they were actually a little worse off than the Sorcerer.

As for the AoN Druid, it's definitely not as strong as the standard Druid.  Does it drop a tier... probably not.

[ChristopherGroves]

I was trying to put this into effect for one of my games but essentially, because of the problem DavidWL describes, had to change some things around. 

The fact is, you have to make some assumptions about what the character is going to be, how it will play, each point in time, etc. ... if you are going to use the system during play, it has to have an adjustment you can make at each level.  More attribute points, etc. don't work because as you level things could get wonky.  Like you could start at Fighter 1, get the bonus attribute points, and then go Wizard after that.

You also have to assume at the end of it all it will be a good build.  A build that starts Wizard 1 / Druid 1 could be headed for Arcane Heirophant, and thus *good*.  But if the player were to throw on Cleric 1 ... then Sorc 1 ... then round it all out with Samurai, it stinks.

In essence, I made fewer tiers ... and I tried to find things that could be applied at each level-increase to balance things (bonus skill points, bonus hit points, bonus to saves, gestalt w/ an NPC class at that level, etc.).