Tier System for Classes

[Ubernoob]

Erudites are one of three things:
A) Incredibly fucking weak.  They get the equivalent of about wilder power selection except that all the powers can be top level (a bad idea).
B) Incredibly fucking strong.  They have min/max tricks like spell to power => arcane fusion.
C) Incredibly fucking complicated (crafter based).

Basically they don't have a default power rating.  In two cases the class is much weaker than psion even if it has more powers it might be able to use (powerstones).  In one case the class is tier zero.

[JaronK]

Well, again, I can't verify anything about them, so they're not going to be ranked anyway for a long while until I feel up to it.  I'd rather only place classes that I've actually seen in play so I can say "yes, here's how they really do work."  I'm willing to rank classes I've looked over and maybe made a build or two with, if I've got other people who can confirm positions.  But if I've barely even seen the class, I don't feel comfortable essencially saying "trust me, this class will work this way in your campaign."

JaronK

[Ubernoob]

Well, again, I can't verify anything about them, so they're not going to be ranked anyway for a long while until I feel up to it.  I'd rather only place classes that I've actually seen in play so I can say "yes, here's how they really do work."  I'm willing to rank classes I've looked over and maybe made a build or two with, if I've got other people who can confirm positions.  But if I've barely even seen the class, I don't feel comfortable essencially saying "trust me, this class will work this way in your campaign."

JaronK

I'm saying it doesn't get a default rating.  Read what I wrote.

[fliprushman]

He wasn't making a comment towards you uber.  The thread is full of people trying to get him to place classes into a tier.

[Ubernoob]

He wasn't making a comment towards you uber.  The thread is full of people trying to get him to place classes into a tier.

Let me give you a hypothetical:
Person A says, "Hey B!  Where does this path go?"
Person B says, "Well, it forks over there.  The left fork leads to dallas and the right fork leads to new york.  Which fork were you taking?"
Person A says, "No really.  Where does the path go?  Why don't you have the answer?"
Person B says, "..."

[JaronK]

No uber, it was more like this:

Person A:  "The left fork in that road goes this way, the right fork in that road goes this way."
Person B:  "Well, I'm drawing maps of the region, so until I can get a satalite view of it or survey it myself, I'm not going to be drawing a map of that road anyhow.
Person A:  *gets all huffy*

JaronK

[Ubernoob]

No uber, it was more like this:

Person A:  "The left fork in that road goes this way, the right fork in that road goes this way."
Person B:  "Well, I'm drawing maps of the region, so until I can get a satalite view of it or survey it myself, I'm not going to be drawing a map of that road anyhow.
Person A:  *gets all huffy*

JaronK

Wow.  Fail.

[JaronK]

Uber, you were giving me information about a class I'm not putting in the system for a long time anyway.  Thus, it was partial information when I'm not going to be placing it anyway.  So I said as much.  It's not that I'm saying your information is wrong, just that I'm not going to be using it at all until such time as I can review the class in question personally.

That's not "fail" that's insisting on reviewing information and coming to an informed decision instead of just hearing what consensus on some board is and pretending it's my own knowledge.  I'm not a parrot.

JaronK

[Ubernoob]

Uber, you were giving me information about a class I'm not putting in the system for a long time anyway.  Thus, it was partial information when I'm not going to be placing it anyway.  So I said as much.  It's not that I'm saying your information is wrong, just that I'm not going to be using it at all until such time as I can review the class in question personally.

Have you actually played with every class in your tiers?  If so, then I both applaud you and... erm... lose even more respect for you as a system head.

As for not putting it into place until later, it's not its own class.  It's literally a variation of psion.  If you understand psions then putting in erudite wouldn't be too hard because it is psion with a very marginal change in casting mechanic.

That's not "fail" that's insisting on reviewing information and coming to an informed decision instead of just hearing what consensus on some board is and pretending it's my own knowledge.  I'm not a parrot.

JaronK

More like too stubborn to learn.

[JaronK]

Have you actually played with every class in your tiers?  If so, then I both applaud you and... erm... lose even more respect for you as a system head.

Yeah yeah.  Everything that's not in itallics I have either played, been in a group with and seen played, or at the very least put together full builds including gear and whatnot and combined that with first hand accounts of the class in action while also having seen a build that at least includes enough of the class to matter.

If it's in itallics, I've heard a lot about it from people I actually know and reviewed the class in question, but never actually played it or seen it played at all.

As for not putting it into place until later, it's not its own class.  It's literally a variation of psion.  If you understand psions then putting in erudite wouldn't be too hard because it is psion with a very marginal change in casting mechanic.

Notice that Psion is in itallics (meaning my experience of them is already limited).  Class varients that are a full tier stronger go in their own catagories, so I'd have to have actually worked with the Erudite itself to have it in the system.  Since I have neither reviewed the Erudite specifically (nor the Spell to Power thing), nor do I personally know anyone who's played on, I'm not placing that varient until such time as I have better information.

More like too stubborn to learn.

No, I simply will not tell people that I believe something if I'm only saying something I heard somewhere else without actually fully understanding it.

JaronK

[Ubernoob]

Would you stop pretending like game analysis is that hard?  Really, you're insulting me.

[JaronK]

So, I posted this elsewhere, but it belongs here as it goes into my reasoning behind the placement of the Factotum, a class that few people are familiar with.

______

Here's how combat went the first time a friend of mine picked up a Factotum (never having played before). He was just released from being captured (plot point to get him into the game) and thus had absolutely no gear at all, just the mundane clothes on his back. If he was anything like a Rogue, he should have been unable to fight, but he was thrown directly into combat, and here's what he did, and note that this is an 8th level Tiefling Factotum:

First, he made a rediculously high Escape Artist check to get out of his bindings (he was supposed to be just waiting for us to rescue him). Then he sneaks down the hall. Coming around the corner, he saw a bad guy right in front of him at the opening to a courtyard where the rest of the party was battling. So, on his initiative (it was an ongoing battle) he gets a free standard action with his Factotum abilities and Alter Selfs into an Advespa, which he had learned about with a quick google search for "Alter Self Forms." This gives him 5 natural attacks, 7 Natural Armour, and a flight speed. Then he full attacks the bad guy in front of him, getting a little sneak attack in for good measure. Next round, as our party is cleaning up pretty good and the Sorcereress just glitterdusted the guy and an enemy near him, the guy ran, getting away around a corner... but the Factotum just used an extra standard action to get to the corner, then charged him and used sneak attack to finish him off.

Now, this is simply not something a naked Rogue does.

Now, you can call an 8th level character using Alter Self to gain natural AC and natural attacks TO, but since it was used in game, it's clearly not, nor is it even overpowered (it's still light duty Wild Shape). Yes, Wizards using Alter Self at level 3 to get +8 Natural AC for 30 minutes is overpowered. But Factotums can't do that sort of thing until 5, at which point the Druid already has Wild Shape, which is an equivalent ability at level 5 and continues to get far better, outpacing Alter Self dramatically as the levels increase

Meanwhile, there's the old Iajuitsu Focus thing. Yes, OA was updated for 3.5, and yes, Factotums have ALL skills as class skills, including Autohypnosis and IF. The ability to take extra standard actions and, when you need, add your Factotum level to your check once in a while makes this incredibly potent. You can draw a weapon (usually with the eager enchantment if you can get it, since generally speaking Factotums have a better place to spend feats) in the surprise round (gained through hiding, or casting invisibility, or whatever), partial action charge the enemy, and deal IF damage. Then, if you want, use an extra standard action to hit them again. Then, if you win initiative, use an extra standard action to sheath your weapon while you move up to another enemy, then draw it and full attack, dealing IF damage a second time (and if you want to add sneak attack damage, you could do that too). I don't know why some people don't think IF should count... that's exactly what the Factotum's forte is (using any skill he wants). And of course an item that gives Sapphire Nightmare Blade is exceptionally cheap.

And then of course there's the spellcasting. While he has few spells per day and they're way behind a Wizard, he's got four big advantages here.

First and formost, he can gain extra standard actions, and can do it a LOT if he takes the Factotum only feat that, well, he almost certainly will take. Saying that feat doesn't count because it's in a weird place is silly, since the Factotum itself is in a weird place so you're already looking through weird places, and the "weird place" is the Class Chronicals about Factotums anyway. That's not hugely weird. The result is that he can combo spells together, which can be extremely useful.

The second advantage Factotums get with spells is that unlike Wizards, they can use the entire list without needing a spellbook. That means that if a Factotum suddenly realizes he needs spell X, that's exactly what he's going to have ready for the next day... plus he doesn't have to spend tons of his wealth by level on a spellbook. This is huge in games like World's Largest Dungeon, or just games where the situation changes a lot.

And the third is that his spells are actually spell like abilities, meaning they always have a standard action casting time. He does have to pay component costs and can't use exp cost spells, but the standard action thing is VERY good with some spells, for example Major Creation or any other spell balanced by its slow casting time.

And fourth, he can ignore SR whenever he wants, starting from level 11. Just think about that one for a second.  Consider how many spells are balanced by the fact that at least SR can stop them, and then realize that when a Factotum does it, he can ignore that.  Cast Spectral Hand and Shivering Touch in the surprise round, touch attack the dragon with it, and ignore his SR for the purpose, which would be his only defense?  Sure.  And you've even got the Factotum's advantages in sneaking up on him, just stay out of the range of his Blindsense (unless you have Darkstalker of course).

So, another way a Factotum could fight (we've been through two already, turning into a powerful combat form and using Iajuitsu Focus for damage boosting) would be to combo useful spells together. One easy example is Cloudkill with Solid Fog, making a fog of death that enemies can't escape from quickly enough. And remember, you can cast the whole combo in the surprise round if you want. Very nasty. You could even cast Animate Dead in the middle of a battle if you so desired, due to the casting time decrease. No one ever expects the skillmonkey to pull that move off.  And the above mentioned combination of Spectral Hand with any potent touch attack.  All this and the ability to ignore SR whenever it suits you is pretty darn incredible.

The important point is that everything I've stated here is just a Factotum with a few Fonts of Inspiration. That's it. I haven't discussed gear other than the side note about using Sapphire Nightmare Blade, or race (though the Advespi thing only works if you're an outsider... that particular character happens to be a Tiefling... but you can use other forms if you're another race). And those were just some examples of what a Factotum can do (I haven't even gone into Turn Undead or his healing abilties or his ability to ignore DR, or his ability to eventually mimic any three Ex class abilities from 15th level characters... how about 10d6 sneak attack, 10d6 sudden strike, and full flurry of blows? Or would you prefer Pounce? You know what else is Ex? A Fighter's Bonus Feats, and you probably just gained 10 of them because you just gained the bonus feats ability of a fighter of your Factotum level. Now, technically spellcasting itself is Ex, but we'll ignore that for now). I haven't gone into his defense either... the ability to simply ignore any damage that would take him to 0 or less hitpoints for 4 Inspiration Points is pretty freaking awesome, as as Int to AC in any armour if he needs it (though his later version of the ability requires light armour). And who doesn't like the ability to add your class level to any save when you want it?

And of course, all of that was just combat. We haven't even gotten started on out of combat.

Out of combat you're much like a Rogue, except that unlike a Rogue you can pump Int without worrying (Rogues have to care about their Dex a lot more if they want to survive, and their poorer defense makes Con that much more critical). This means your higher int will make up for the skill point difference. Then you've got both Int and Dex (and both Int and Str) to skills that require Str or Dex, the ability to add your Factotum level once per day to any skill you've got a point in already, and of course the ability to cast nearly any Wizard/Sorc spell, though admittedly a few spell levels behind the big boys. This can mean scouting an area while Alter Selfed into a Whispergnome or Skulk for better hide and move silently, using Autohypnosis to automatically memorize every detail you see, and then sneaking back. Or just using a divination spell. You've got such spells as Knock and Silence to help out too. And that's just the scouting aspect.

There's a reason Factotums are in Tier 3 in my system, and in fact they're pretty high in Tier 3. They've got so much innate flexibility it's obscene... unexperienced DMs thinking they're weaker could get VERY surprised but how much a Factotum can alter himself to suit a situation perfectly.  Put a Factotum in a group with a Rogue and that Rogue ends up looking like dead weight plenty of the time (any time where the situation calls for one skill monkey to do something). And the Fighter? The Factotum can often outclass him too, sometimes dropping whole encounters in the surprise round and start of the first round. And he can do all of it without warning, adapting on the fly to the situation in front of him.  Certainly, when I watch the one that's currently grouped with my Dread Necromancer (plus a Sorcerer, Cleric, Swordsage, and Paladin of Tyranny/Hexblade) there's no way he's the weak link.

So yeah, really potent, really flexible class that can REALLY surprise a DM.

JaronK

[Sunic_Flames]

Spell Resistance, meet Assay. :rolleyes

[JaronK]

Yes, but Assay doesn't ignore it entirely (just effectively lowers it by 10), and it uses up a spell known (if you're a sorcerer) or a memorized spell, nor do Factotums need to use up any sort of action to cast it.  Furthermore, Assay will only hit one creature at a time (you'd need another casting to hit another creature), so you can't for example ignore the SR on three creatures that you're about to tag with an AoE.  Factotums can, and they can do it on the fly instead of having to have it memorized in advance.  Having Assay as one of your spells memorized or spells known is a waste of a spell if you don't hit anything that has SR that day, but Factotums can just do it on the fly.

JaronK

[Tshern]

Spell Resistance, meet Assay. :rolleyes

Burning through fourth level slots isn't that nice though.

JaronK: As a question: What do you think about Factotums with, say, three or less Font of Inspirations?

[JaronK]

JaronK: As a question: What do you think about Factotums with, say, three or less Font of Inspirations?

Honestly, I don't expect them to take more than four anyway, as at that point you've just got enough for a given encounter unless your DM runs really long encounters.  And the one I've seen in the evil campaign I'm playing in (which is the one I've been using as an example) has it twice, IIRC, with Darkstalker as his other feat.

The thing is that Factotums are so flexible that most people want feats that maintain that flexibility, and Font of Inspiration is really the one that does that.  So, usually they'll take it a lot, until they have plenty... but 3 or 4 actually does that.  However, since few other feats are really good for a Factotum (since they'll apply only to one of his areas of expertise, usually) often more will get taken later in the game once they have whatever other feats they might have wanted.

So, nothing I said fails to apply to someone with three Fonts.  That's an extra 6 inspiration points, enough for two free standard actions a round, in addition to their base amount.  At level 8, for example, you've got 11 in total if you do that... enough to cast two spells, gain two free standard actions, boost your IF check once, and still leave 2 more for defense or whatever else you want.  Other than the extra standard action thing, all their abilities cost just one point (until you hit level 19 of course, at which point you've got plenty of points to work with), and it resets after every encounter anyway.

So, yeah, I think 3 is enough to get the job done, though in my experience people want a little extra leeway and go for four.  After that, feats I've seen taken include Darkstalker (for obvious reasons), Quickdraw (in a game where Eager weapons would be hard to come by), and the occasional Metamagic feat.  Also, Craft Wonderous Item has come up as an option, but it hasn't been taken.  But then again, if a player doesn't know what all is out there, they tend to just default to Font.  It's just so handy.

Now, as for less than that, I don't know.  The guy with 2 seems to be doing fine, but I believe he's planning to take it again at level 9, bringing him up to 3.  The other one in the game I'm running has a bunch of Fonts, but that game has house rules with regards to feats so I don't think it's going to be relevant.

JaronK

[woodenbandman]

Factotum: What the Chameleon should have been.

[JaronK]

Well, they're similar classes.  But yes, it's basically a base class version of a Chameleon in a lot of ways.

Binders are similar in their insane flexibility.

JaronK

[Tshern]

Honestly, I don't expect them to take more than four anyway, as at that point you've just got enough for a given encounter unless your DM runs really long encounters.  And the one I've seen in the evil campaign I'm playing in (which is the one I've been using as an example) has it twice, IIRC, with Darkstalker as his other feat.

Not a bad selection. Darkstalker is needed if you intend to sneak around.

The thing is that Factotums are so flexible that most people want feats that maintain that flexibility, and Font of Inspiration is really the one that does that.  So, usually they'll take it a lot, until they have plenty... but 3 or 4 actually does that.  However, since few other feats are really good for a Factotum (since they'll apply only to one of his areas of expertise, usually) often more will get taken later in the game once they have whatever other feats they might have wanted.

I've never played a single Factotum and the one I've DMed was a low level one and he had only Font and Darkstalker... Any other decent suggestions?

So, nothing I said fails to apply to someone with three Fonts.

I take your word for it.

Thanks for spreading the conversation a bit. Satisfied my curiosity and opened the discussion on other options. Cheers.

[woodenbandman]

Wow, a factotum could be the single most useful support character ever made. Too bad there's no prestige options, but hey, who needs 'em with 10 or so Font of Inspirations?