Brilliant Gameologists Forum

The Thinktank => Homebrew & House Rules => Topic started by: bkdubs123 on March 29, 2009, 05:49:30 PM



Title: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: bkdubs123 on March 29, 2009, 05:49:30 PM
So after rebalancing feats and spells I decided something needed to be done with Exotic Weapons. They are just never worth taking a feat for, or if they are the weapon just ends up being too good. So I mulled the idea over, and I couldn't come up with any direction to go in, but then I brought it up to a friend who immediately thought to give Exotic Weapons requirements, like feats have, in order to wield them. Such as:

Bastard Sword - Requirements: Str 13, Balance 4 ranks
Dwarven Waraxe - Requirements: Dwarf, or Str 13 and Con 13
Whip - Requirements: Dex 13, Sleight of Hand 4 ranks
Orc Double Axe - Requirements: Str 15 and either Orc, or Balance 4 ranks
Double Sword - Requirements: Str 13, Dex 13, and Balance 4 ranks
Net - Requirements: Wis 13, Escape Artist 4 ranks
Spiked Chain - Requirements: Base Attack +5, Str 13, Dex 15, Wis 15, Balance 5 ranks, Sleight of Hand 8 ranks (yes, I hate the Spiked Chain, but it is also far and above the most difficult thing to wield in the above list)

Thoughts on the above? Any other thoughts to rebalance exotic weapons?


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: Jradd7 on March 29, 2009, 08:45:17 PM
For Net would Escape Artist or Use Rope or Escape Artist and Use Rope be more logical?
For Spiked Chain would adding a Use Rope ranks or having the option of switching Sleight of Hand for Use Rope make sense?

Further, as far as non-exotic weapons, should better stats or ranks in skills allow more unorthodox usefulness in those weapons? Part of the reason that exotic weapons are better than the others is that most of them have some special use (trip bonus, disarm bonus, finessable, etc). If a character has a high Sleight of Hand or Dexterity, should they be able to disarm or trip with a light/heavy pick? It's somewhat curved like other weapons that get that use. I think things like that should probably be taken into account.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: RobbyPants on March 29, 2009, 09:14:06 PM
Are those requirements in additon to the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat or are they a replacement?  I'm getting the impression you meant the latter.

The four ranks of balance will keep several classes out until 5th level.  Weapons like the waraxe will be trivially easy for any melee type to qualify for; this will make the battle axe obsolete.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: bkdubs123 on March 29, 2009, 10:12:52 PM
Are those requirements in additon to the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat or are they a replacement?  I'm getting the impression you meant the latter.

The idea is meant to replace the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat.

Quote
The four ranks of balance will keep several classes out until 5th level.

True. Is this a problem?

Quote
Weapons like the waraxe will be trivially easy for any melee type to qualify for; this will make the battle axe obsolete.

Okay, I understand the problem here.

@Robby: What do you think of the premise in general?

@Jradd7: I thought about Use Rope, but since I plan to eliminate the Use Rope skill I opted away from that. The idea about non-exotic weapons getting additional usefulness because of skill ranks or stats is an interesting one, and something I may explore. Something to keep in mind, once I get to rebalancing skills, things like Balance and Sleight of Hand will have new and interesting uses of their own, some of which I plan to make useful during combat and may well involve weapon tricks.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: Jradd7 on March 29, 2009, 10:50:11 PM

Quote
Weapons like the waraxe will be trivially easy for any melee type to qualify for; this will make the battle axe obsolete.

@Jradd7: I thought about Use Rope, but since I plan to eliminate the Use Rope skill I opted away from that. The idea about non-exotic weapons getting additional usefulness because of skill ranks or stats is an interesting one, and something I may explore. Something to keep in mind, once I get to rebalancing skills, things like Balance and Sleight of Hand will have new and interesting uses of their own, some of which I plan to make useful during combat and may well involve weapon tricks.

Cool, cool. Yeah, see, I'm thinking, in part here, that simpler weapons being able to gain better uses through advanced ranks, etcetera, might help to preserve their usefulness.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: SiggyDevil on March 30, 2009, 01:56:33 AM
Modular weapons with Build Points was a better idea.
Exotics would have the most points and diversity but require the higher degree of investment to use without penalty.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: bkdubs123 on March 30, 2009, 02:56:02 AM
Modular weapons with Build Points was a better idea.
Exotics would have the most points and diversity but require the higher degree of investment to use without penalty.

Should I have any idea what you're talking about?


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: RobbyPants on March 30, 2009, 07:36:11 AM
Quote
The four ranks of balance will keep several classes out until 5th level.

True. Is this a problem?
Well, it's a problem compared to people normally taking EWP at 1st level, but I don't know that it's a problem balance-wise.  I guess the idea is you spend four skill points instead of a feat to get +1 damage on average.  I suppose ranks in Balance could be handy anyway, because five ranks keeps you from being flat-footed while balancing.

@Robby: What do you think of the premise in general?
The general premise is kind of interesting.  It saves feats, but with some skills being cross-class skills, I'm not sure how useful it would be.  I think this will result in some weapons being very optimal for certain classes, and other weapons never being used.  I'm not saying it's bad for balance, but it will probably be what you see in actual game play.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: RobbyPants on March 30, 2009, 07:38:22 AM
Modular weapons with Build Points was a better idea.
Exotics would have the most points and diversity but require the higher degree of investment to use without penalty.

Should I have any idea what you're talking about?
I don't know the specifics, but I think the idea is certain aspects of weapons (damage, crit threat range, crit multiplier, etc) are worth points, and you have so many points to create a weapon.  So you can increase the crit by decreasing the damage.  Exotic Weapons would have more points.

Although, this is really how the current system works; you just can't customize it on your own.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: woodenbandman on March 30, 2009, 12:17:20 PM
Yeah that spiked chain has retarded requirements. Nobody except maybe a monk could wield that bad boy. This is a good idea, but FFS reduce the prereqs on the Spiked Chain. It's not like Guisarme +Spiked Gauntlet hasn't been around for forever.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: Jradd7 on March 30, 2009, 06:54:30 PM
Yeah that spiked chain has retarded requirements. Nobody except maybe a monk could wield that bad boy. This is a good idea, but FFS reduce the prereqs on the Spiked Chain. It's not like Guisarme +Spiked Gauntlet hasn't been around for forever.

I believe that Bkdubs has not made it clear enough that he will also be making changes to how skills work (mentioned that he is removing Use Rope, probably among others, and changing usefulness of certain skills, etc). I'm sure that eventually part of the process will be balancing skills in such a way that these pre-requisites will be more viable or as restrictive as they need to be. To your credit, without insight into how much skills will change and without a comprehensive list, it will be difficult to make a full judgment on any given possibility that he has posted thus far. Basically, who knows if these requirements are going to be all that ridiculous compared to the others since we don't know what is going on with skills yet in his rebalancing project, especially if skill pre-reqs are generally going to be the norm for weapons? As far as the ability score stuff goes, Druids or Cleric among a few others, might meet the requirements as well.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: RobbyPants on March 30, 2009, 09:31:05 PM
Either way, it will take forever to qualify for the spiked chain.  It's not so much that the requirements are steep, but more that they don't really synergyze with eachother, so almost no character is going to have a full BAB, Sleight of Hand and Balance as class skills, and have the required ability scores.

I'd say, if the weapon bothers you that much, just get rid of it.  Alternately, use the whip dagger.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: bkdubs123 on March 30, 2009, 10:17:25 PM
The point isn't that I hate the weapon (of course I do), the point is that the Spiked Chain would be incredibly difficult to wield with any sort of proficiency, or without hurting yourself. I mean, yeah, I don't know if those requirements are too high, but I want them to be pretty harsh because the weapon is going to be hard to use. I'll be working on rebalancing other exotics soon, and then after that probably adjust some of the effects/stats of weapons to reflect how difficult the weapon seems to be to wield.

And actually, the Warlord and Sohei both have Balance and Sleight of Hand as class skills (as well as full BAB).


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: RobbyPants on March 31, 2009, 07:16:13 AM
There is a similar weapon based in reality called the kau sin ke.  It's shorter and blunt, but the basic premise is the same.  I'm not sure if it's long enough to trip people or profide reach.

(http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos/items/67/000267/ph-0.jpg)

I do agree that weapons like this would be more difficult to wield, but I'm not sure the requirements should be so steep.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: woodenbandman on March 31, 2009, 09:48:23 AM
I think that this is a point in the game where disbelief must be suspended because it's more fun that way. Just say a wizard did it.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: Jradd7 on March 31, 2009, 04:04:14 PM
I have to agree with Bkdubs as far as the difficulty in use. If you are, in RL, a well-trained martial artist who knows how to use those oriental, exotic weapons that we see in the movies, you still would probably be cautious about picking up something like the spiked chain. Just about anybody can pick up a sword and hurt someone with it without hurting themselves, the spiked chain... more doubtful that someone could do serious damage to someone else without hurting themselves in the process. Basically, we're talking about requirement differences of at least 5 levels, right? How long would you expect a martial arts master to take to be able to wield a spiked chain as well as they wield a normal sword? I mean, I'm sure that people don't look at a wall of weapons and figure that the kau sin ke is only going to take a couple of months to learn how to use it really well.

As he points out, these go hand-in-hand with the rebalanced classes (and other rebalances that he's doing; I mean skill sets of all the classes are obviously going to change some if he's removing some skills completely and changing things around in that way) that he's already made and two of the classes that are meant to potentially be veritable masters of weapon combat if they want would not have nearly as tough a time using the weapon. In a way giving it steep penalties gives those classes more of their own power because of how much more it would take others to attain its usefulness.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: woodenbandman on April 03, 2009, 10:01:29 AM
I agree that it makes logical sense, but it makes zero mechanical sense. In a world where you can buy proficiency in a weapon for a +1 bonus, it's ridiculous to make people spend one of their 6-9 feats that they ever get to learn to use a weapon. I like the tome's way of doing this: you train for a week and you can use the weapon.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: veekie on April 03, 2009, 11:30:54 AM
I agree that it makes logical sense, but it makes zero mechanical sense. In a world where you can buy proficiency in a weapon for a +1 bonus, it's ridiculous to make people spend one of their 6-9 feats that they ever get to learn to use a weapon. I like the tome's way of doing this: you train for a week and you can use the weapon.
Weapon Groups are a nice middle ground, with wide spanning proficiencies. You can wield anything reasonably similar to anything else you can wield.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: bkdubs123 on April 03, 2009, 02:24:43 PM
I agree that it makes logical sense, but it makes zero mechanical sense. In a world where you can buy proficiency in a weapon for a +1 bonus, it's ridiculous to make people spend one of their 6-9 feats that they ever get to learn to use a weapon. I like the tome's way of doing this: you train for a week and you can use the weapon.

Are you thinking of the +2 Skillful enhancement or is there a cheaper knockoff version? Either way, with my sweeping revisions I'm hoping to make things more logical, and eventually I'm going to drastically rework how wealth-by-level works. I personally am not a fan of Tome's way of doing it, but to each his own.

Weapon Groups are something I'm going to work with, so there will be a Sword Proficiency feat granting proficiency with all weapons in the Sword group, and maybe a small bonus to damage as well.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: Midnight_v on April 04, 2009, 03:14:37 AM
Quote
The four ranks of balance will keep several classes out until 5th level.

True. Is this a problem?
Well, it's a problem compared to people normally taking EWP at 1st level, but I don't know that it's a problem balance-wise.  I guess the idea is you spend four skill points instead of a feat to get +1 damage on average.  I suppose ranks in Balance could be handy anyway, because five ranks keeps you from being flat-footed while balancing

Personal dislike affects your decision making when you "Hate" a specific part of the game. So it kinda reflect as you went overboard on the spiked chain pre-reqs'.
Its actually "Worth" a feat in probbably, but keeping people out of the weapons they want to use till X level seems like a bad idea. Depending on the reasoning.
You basically can't use that thing at first level. Terrible.   :nonono


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: bkdubs123 on April 04, 2009, 02:56:56 PM
I'll give you this: The Spiked Chain is so good that it is worth a feat to gain proficiency in.

The problem though, it is actually a better option to take Spiked Chain Proficiency than it is to take, say, Lunging Strike (even my revised version (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3654.msg115115#msg115115)).

Your argument is that it is bad to keep people from using the weapons they want at 1st level, simply because it is bad to not let players do what they want (I think).

My argument against would be that when an option is clearly better than any other equivalent option, just because a player wants to use it doesn't mean he or she should be allowed.

People say, "cut the spiked chain" or "make it less effective," or "make all other weapons just as effective." All can be viable options too. This is just an idea I'm exploring right now. Yes, it looks like I'm hating on the Spiked Chain, but it is easily the mechanically best option in the PHB, as well as being logically the most difficult to actually wield weapon in the PHB. Once I would get around to assigning requirements for other exotics in other books I'm sure I'd assign harsh prereqs to other weapons as well (Whip-Dagger shouldn't be all that easy to use either).


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: veekie on April 05, 2009, 07:04:58 AM
Make the weapons worth the prereqs though, is just sensible. Like for example, if it's got the same requirements as the spiked chain(worth a feat), then it should give proportionate benefits to the spiked chain. Regardless of if it 'makes sense' for that weapon to be easy or hard to wield. The monk weapons are one of those badly costed, 'because they're foreign' exotics that wouldn't stand up to a martial weapon in terms of advantages.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: bkdubs123 on April 05, 2009, 08:26:36 AM
Make the weapons worth the prereqs though, is just sensible. Like for example, if it's got the same requirements as the spiked chain(worth a feat), then it should give proportionate benefits to the spiked chain. Regardless of if it 'makes sense' for that weapon to be easy or hard to wield. The monk weapons are one of those badly costed, 'because they're foreign' exotics that wouldn't stand up to a martial weapon in terms of advantages.

Right. Is the Spiked Chain worth the prereqs I gave it? I think it is. Mechanically it has huge advantages over weapons like the Dwarven Waraxe or the Double Sword. Likewise the monk weapons aren't worth shit, and don't need to be exotic at all.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: woodenbandman on April 05, 2009, 10:06:21 AM
The spiked chain isn't really all that effective. Especially not worth a whole feat. A Guisarme + Armor Spikes are about as good, and they don't cost feats. I agree that it has advantages over the Dwarven Waraxe and the Double Sword, but neither of those weapons are good in general.

Weapons need a bigger impact, such as bigger damage dice. Also, size increases need to be rarer.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: bkdubs123 on April 05, 2009, 10:32:55 AM
Reach + Spikes is only almost as good as the chain because you can attack with armor spikes. Since that makes no logical sense to me, I've never used them, never seen them used in any game, and I would rule to a player of my games that wanted to use armor spikes that he couldn't attack with them. Perhaps if someone could convince me that the ability to attack with armor spikes is at all logical, I'd concede the point.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: woodenbandman on April 05, 2009, 10:43:58 AM
Why wouldn't it be logical? You have knives attached to your body. It's like a shield bash. Or you could use the ones on your knee. It's no more illogical than a monk attacking a guy in armor (with armor spikes on it) with his foot or hand or elbow.

The problem you have with exotic weapons seems to me to be entirely logical, which has no place in the mechanics of a game where you can get free wishes for only 8k.



Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: Midnight_v on April 05, 2009, 11:03:22 AM
Why wouldn't it be logical? You have knives attached to your body. It's like a shield bash. Or you could use the ones on your knee. It's no more illogical than a monk attacking a guy in armor (with armor spikes on it) with his foot or hand or elbow.

The problem you have with exotic weapons seems to me to be entirely logical, which has no place in the mechanics of a game where you can get free wishes for only 8k.


Amen. Thats "Real life" logic at that. I'd just decided i'd as soon not argue with him.
The problem isn't that the Spiked chain is too good. Its that the other weapons... well kinda suck.
Even the EWM Prc doesn't fix it over all. You could make people not play the weapon you don't like (actually you hate it Iirc) by making it suck or you could give everyone options for playing other exwps by making them more attractive. Your pejorotive attodtude and strict "real world" approach to the situation places your objectivity in doubt, really.
 In the end though people would still use the thing they'd just build a better spiked chain build or finaagle it to be able to. What difference would that change really make but to frustrate a few early level dudes.
Bah! They have enough things to worry about besides building towards a weapon a few levels later.
Course... hey... thats just my opinion, good sir. I'm sure you have a contary one though. Good luck with the fix. M_v


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: bkdubs123 on April 05, 2009, 01:01:41 PM
Why wouldn't it be logical? You have knives attached to your body.

Knives? Really?

Quote
It's like a shield bash.

Which is used when wielding a shield, and why there is the Spiked Shield.

Quote
Or you could use the ones on your knee.

Which just sounds like an unarmed attack that now deals lethal damage and is piercing.

Quote
The problem you have with exotic weapons seems to me to be entirely logical, which has no place in the mechanics of a game where you can get free wishes for only 8k.

Because everyone loves unlimited wishes! :rollseyes. The point is I'm making the game more balanced (er rather, I'm attempting to) which means removing the mechanics that allow you to get a free wish for 8k. That also means making options that are too strong less strong. Yes, the spiked chain is better than other weapons. If I want all weapons to be available without a feat then something has to be done with weapons that are mechanically better than all others, or I just have to make no weapons better than others at all, and say goodbye to things like the Katana, the Dwarven Waraxe, and the Spiked Chain (which seems almost lame to me).


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: Midnight_v on April 05, 2009, 09:42:27 PM
Quote
Yes, the spiked chain is better than other weapons. If I want all weapons to be available without a feat then something has to be done with weapons that are mechanically better than all others
Hmm... I see then maybe thats the wrong direction *sigh*.
Seems like spending a feat and making exotics mechanically weapons better, has more appeal.


Quote
Weapons need a bigger impact, such as bigger damage dice. Also, size increases need to be rarer.
Woodenbandman... I think you're right to a large extent.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: bkdubs123 on April 05, 2009, 10:00:18 PM
]Hmm... I see then maybe thats the wrong direction *sigh*.
Seems like spending a feat and making exotics mechanically weapons better, has more appeal.

Well, I never said anything about changing the effectiveness of exotics did I? Your suggestion means that I have to rebalance all of the exotics so that they are all equally effective, and all equally worth the same feat.

Quote
Weapons need a bigger impact, such as bigger damage dice. Also, size increases need to be rarer.
Woodenbandman... I think you're right to a large extent.
[/quote]

What do you mean by "weapons need a bigger impact?"


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: Kuroimaken on April 05, 2009, 10:08:45 PM
The spiked chain isn't really all that effective. Especially not worth a whole feat. A Guisarme + Armor Spikes are about as good, and they don't cost feats. I agree that it has advantages over the Dwarven Waraxe and the Double Sword, but neither of those weapons are good in general.

Weapons need a bigger impact, such as bigger damage dice. Also, size increases need to be rarer.

Spiked chains are good for tripmonkeys, and that's pretty much IT. The damage sucks, their crit range is horrible, and reach doesn't really help anything if you can't keep someone at bay (namely by threatening and tripping with it, which - surprise! - it doesn't, either!). The good thing about them is that they're core and, between them and a whip, you're better off with them - the two require a feat to use (except for bards, who get whip proficiency for free) and the whip means you take AoOs for using it in melee. I believe it was mentioned by someone else that the monk weapons are silly for being exotic because monks are automatically proficient with them and only they benefit from those anyway, and that person is right.

Anyhoo, someone suggested elsewhere in the boards to knock exotic weapons down to martial and provide additional funcionality upon taking EWP. I think it's a good idea, personally - Fighters should be able to handle different weapons better without screwing themselves out of a feat and without having to take ranks in skills they'll likely never use (consider that most Fighters use Fullplate. What use is Balance to THEM?).


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: bkdubs123 on April 05, 2009, 11:37:23 PM
Well, jeez, since there are so many more viable Fighter builds than Tripper, or Charger, or Archer (and even this last is questionable). And hey, the Spiked Chain works just as well as the Greatsword does in the Charger build.

Knocking exotics to martial is another possibility, but then the base characteristics need to be balanced against at least some of the martial weapons. I personally don't want to see every Fighter choosing the Spiked Chain over the Guisarme. And then the benefits granted by each exotic weapon through the proficiency feat need to all be worth the feat, and balanced together. But I agree this is another way to do it.

Everyone seems to be able to agree that not all Fighters should be so limited in their skill selection, and that the game shouldn't all but force Fighters to be Str based Full Plate wearers. Even aside from that 5 ranks in Balance gives the nice benefit of not being automatically flat-footed while making balance checks. And then of course is the Warlord class I designed to replace the Fighter which actually has Balance as a class skill (Not to mention my plans for giving expanded combat uses and benefits to lots of skills).

I think we can all agree that hardly any of the exotic weapons are worth a feat (except, IMO the spiked chain). I think we can all agree that if using my revised feats (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3654.msg115115#msg115115) that none of the exotics are worth a feat (except, I'll still argue, sometimes the Spiked Chain). I am open to other suggestions of course, I was merely throwing this one out. It seems that nobody likes the idea, so let's come up with some other way to deal with exotic weapons.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: Kuroimaken on April 06, 2009, 02:17:43 AM
Quote
I think we can all agree that hardly any of the exotic weapons are worth a feat (except, IMO the spiked chain). I think we can all agree that if using my revised feats that none of the exotics are worth a feat (except, I'll still argue, sometimes the Spiked Chain). I am open to other suggestions of course, I was merely throwing this one out. It seems that nobody likes the idea, so let's come up with some other way to deal with exotic weapons.

Utterly agreed. Methinks the reason they even invented the Exotic Weapon cathegory was to lump in everything that looked slightly "off" in their concept.

I also agree that Fighters are extremely limited in what they can do, skill-wise. Their numbers are made of bullshit. Consider, say, the Cleric (which also has numbers made of bullshit): 4 skill points, hit die only slightly beneath the fighter, medium BAB, two good saves and full spellcasting. I don't think it'd kill balance something else to do with his skill points besides running a marathon.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: bkdubs123 on April 06, 2009, 02:25:18 AM
Yeah, I can see what you mean about the "reason" for Exotics. That's certainly what it looks like.

Also, you have seen this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2394.0) right? It hasn't been updated with a new list of Combat Feats since I've revised a ton of feats, but it still works.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: Kuroimaken on April 06, 2009, 02:38:58 AM
Yeah, I can see what you mean about the "reason" for Exotics. That's certainly what it looks like.

Also, you have seen this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2394.0) right? It hasn't been updated with a new list of Combat Feats since I've revised a ton of feats, but it still works.

Actually, I hadn't. I'll be sure to have a look when I've got a bit more time.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: Midnight_v on April 06, 2009, 08:38:46 AM
Yeah, I can see what you mean about the "reason" for Exotics. That's certainly what it looks like.

Also, you have seen this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2394.0) right? It hasn't been updated with a new list of Combat Feats since I've revised a ton of feats, but it still works.
Nor had I... and thats pretty relavant as far as a starting point for the discussion.
 


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: bkdubs123 on April 06, 2009, 12:30:36 PM
Well holy crap, that guy's been around so long I'd just assumed all of the avid homebrewers had seen him!


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: Kuroimaken on April 06, 2009, 03:54:44 PM
I for one don't check every thread on the homebrew forum, but that's just me.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: SiggyDevil on April 07, 2009, 04:19:12 AM
Modular weapons with Build Points was a better idea.
Exotics would have the most points and diversity but require the higher degree of investment to use without penalty.

Should I have any idea what you're talking about?
I don't know the specifics, but I think the idea is certain aspects of weapons (damage, crit threat range, crit multiplier, etc) are worth points, and you have so many points to create a weapon.  So you can increase the crit by decreasing the damage.  Exotic Weapons would have more points.

Although, this is really how the current system works; you just can't customize it on your own.

Zerosum's modular weapons. Can't find original thread. Here's repost:


Weapon Build Points
Simple +1 BP
Martial +3 BP
Exotic +5 BP

Base Damage as by Light Weapon for User’s Size
Tiny : 1d3
Small : 1d4
Medium : 1d6
Large : 1d8
Huge : 1d10

Default Critical : 20
Default Critical Multiplier : x2

Weapon Traits
Increase Damage by 1 Die Size : -2 BP
Increase Number of Dice (but reduce die size by 1) : -2 BP
Increase Critical Chance +1 : -1 BP
Increase Critical Multiplier +1 : -1 BP
Additional Damage Type (Slashing, Bludgeoning, Piercing) : -1 BP
Reach +5 feet : -1 BP
Reach Can Attack Adjacent Targets : -2 BP
Thrown (+10 feet increment, +10 again for each weapon size smaller than user’s own) : -1 BP
Trip Function : -1 BP


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: Midnight_v on April 07, 2009, 08:54:40 AM
 :D
Wow I've always though about doing that never got to it! I'm so glad someone did (Zero sum)
It always irked me that I didn't have "tiger" hook swords to do what I want. Or you could'nt craft
Kyuss's weapon things like that.
I do wonder where you'd get dice types like 2d4 & 2d6 but i've not studied this fully yet.
Lets see...
SPiked chain:
Exotic +5 BP
------------
Reach +5 feet : -1 BP
Reach Can Attack Adjacent Targets : -2 BP
Trip Function : -1 BP
Increase Number of Dice (but reduce die size by 1) : -2 BP
--------------------------------------
+2 to disarm -X Bp (1?)
+ for Weapon Finesse feat to apply -X(1) Bp

----------------------------------
You still can't make a spiked chain. I'm sad i hope Zerosum comes and posts a link.... anyone?

.................in fact you don't seem to be able to make the "Greatsword" either...............

Increase Number of Dice (but reduce die size by 1) : -2 BP Should probbably be -1 then.
That way you could make the greatsword at least.




Unless... unless of course there's a different scale for "heavy weapons" I see, yes that must be it. Man, I'm really liking this more and more.



Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: Skip Sandwich on April 07, 2009, 09:50:33 PM
yup, the greatsword is a large weapon so you'd start at base damage 1d8, -2bp to change that to 2d6, then -1bp to make 19-20/x2 critical


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: Midnight_v on April 07, 2009, 10:25:37 PM
Then thats a damn good rubric.
One of the best fixes I've seen.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: bkdubs123 on April 07, 2009, 10:45:37 PM
I don't understand what that fixes. It makes making weapons easier, for damn sure, but how does it do anything about the problem of exotics not being worth a feat?


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: SiggyDevil on April 07, 2009, 11:14:31 PM
M_V: Correct
Zero claimed to retro-engineer these point values from weapon values straight out of the PHB, which is entirely possible, but it seems the imbalance is actually due to the fact that no similar process was used by the 3e creators!!!

A possibly correction would be to bump the points up across the board, with each further category as a multiple of the previous, if not a multiple and then 1-2 more. Got to make it worth those extra feats.
For instance:
Simple +2 BP
Martial +5 BP (2 x2 +1)
Exotic +8 BP (2 x3 +2)


Weapon maximum BP could even scale with character level.
Otherwise, the warrior itself could gain weapon traits applicable to everything they wield (like similar feats but better since, well, weapon feats tend to suck)

In all it doesn't even overpower many encounters since PCs are fighting monsters with far better natural weapons and defenses, as well as spells that ignore such weapons or even destroy them outright.
One could rework the spells to match suckier weapons, but I'd rather boost the weapons than nerf spells that far down.

Taken a step further results in modular weapons with enhancements straight out of the DMG.
For instance, Shock or Flaming.
I suggest calculating such special effects compared to spells used by characters of the same level rather than their seemingly arbitrated "enhancement bonus".

Martial weapons would then have a discount to magical enhancements, and exotics a similar yet greater discount.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: bkdubs123 on April 07, 2009, 11:33:51 PM
Ah, so the point then would be that there really are no "martial" or "exotic" weapons. There are simply weapons, and the character's skill with the weapon determines how effective it is? So, that full BAB characters wielding a longsword can do more things with their longswords than other non-warrior classes? Because I actually really like that idea. The more BAB a character has the more of these BP that character has, to spend how they wish with any weapon they wield... each character uses their weapons in whatever capacity they want... It's an interesting concept for sure.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: Kuroimaken on April 07, 2009, 11:40:30 PM
Ah, so the point then would be that there really are no "martial" or "exotic" weapons. There are simply weapons, and the character's skill with the weapon determines how effective it is? So, that full BAB characters wielding a longsword can do more things with their longswords than other non-warrior classes? Because I actually really like that idea. The more BAB a character has the more of these BP that character has, to spend how they wish with any weapon they wield... each character uses their weapons in whatever capacity they want... It's an interesting concept for sure.

AND it actually values BAB as something more than a static, pseudo-unalienable to-hit bonus and PrC/feat qualifying stat.

I really like that idea.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: bkdubs123 on April 07, 2009, 11:42:31 PM
Yes. This certainly has LOTS of potential. This plus weapons groups = liquid gold.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: SixthDeclension on April 07, 2009, 11:46:53 PM
Wow that was funny. I started to doze off and I read the title of this thread and saw "Rebalancing Erotic Weapons" How could we do that?


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: SiggyDevil on April 07, 2009, 11:54:14 PM
Ah, so the point then would be that there really are no "martial" or "exotic" weapons. There are simply weapons, and the character's skill with the weapon determines how effective it is? So, that full BAB characters wielding a longsword can do more things with their longswords than other non-warrior classes? Because I actually really like that idea. The more BAB a character has the more of these BP that character has, to spend how they wish with any weapon they wield... each character uses their weapons in whatever capacity they want... It's an interesting concept for sure.

Where would you put the BP?

In the character so that everything they wield has similar advantages
OR
In the weapons they use (applying a penalty to characters with insufficient BAB to use such a BP-loaded weapon)
OR
Perhaps both, half and half or similar ratio.

I'd go with the mix, leaning more towards the character's ability than weapon, by 75% PC to 25% weapon.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: bkdubs123 on April 08, 2009, 12:17:07 AM
Well, I'm thinking there would no longer be simple or martial weapons, there would simply be weapons groups, with a few weapons in each of them, balanced against each other, with 3 BP in the weapons themselves. There is of course Weapons Groups proficiencies, and warrior types get more groups than anyone else, and then as a character gains BAB they gain "BP." Probably equivalent to their BAB. For each weapon they are proficient with they get to build their own capabilities with that weapon. Weapon Focus can even grant bonus "BP" for this purpose.

Two people with full BAB might use their Longsword in two different ways. Another person with medium BAB uses a Longsword, but they can't use it as well. A person with poor BAB might have the Swords Group proficiency, but they don't use their Longsword any better than a Commoner would.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: veekie on April 08, 2009, 12:22:52 AM
This is a very good basis.

Going with weapon groups, hand out multiple levels of proficiency.(maybe 6? 7?, after the 3rd one the higher levels is basically semi magical levels of skill already). Every weapon has it's own little table of things you can do with it at higher levels of skill, some weapons have a certain minimum number of traits(e.g. spiked chain and polearms must have reach, as well as a certain damage minimum, regardless of proficiency, this is countered by having penalties at lower level of proficiency than 3 overcoming it's 'pluses')
Entirely unproficient is level 0, this is where you are liable to hit yourself with the thing or suffer a big penalty to hit, depending on how big a gap you have to the weapon's minimum useable proficiency.
Simple weapon level proficiency is level 1, in which you take a weapon and attempt to place the pointy end into someone by means of a vigorous arm movement. Martial weapons wielded with this get some penalties, and some exotics are still likely to hit yourself with the damaging end.
Martial weapon level proficiency is level 2, army trained level, simple weapons wielded with this get additional attributes, generally better damage or to-hit, though flexible things like quarterstaffs may get additional modes of use. Exotics just give penalties at this point, they're unwieldy, but not 'hit yourself' unwieldy.
Exotic weapon level proficiency is level 3, you can do various stunts with martial and simple weapons, some of the two handed ones likely can grant a shield bonus to AC even. Exotics come in without penalty here.
For the next 3 steps, you can put freakier weapons, weapons that wouldn't even be useable at all IRL(say, maybe the dire flail), and keep granting bonus abilities to the simpler weapons.

One weapon can do all those things, but the wielder needs to have the appropriate skill level in that sort of weapon.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: bkdubs123 on April 08, 2009, 12:37:33 AM
Everyone +fu Siggy for the base idea, and explaining it's potential to me so that I had any idea how it might be used.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: SiggyDevil on April 08, 2009, 12:41:41 AM
Another application might be for spellcasters using traditional mage items such as wand and staff (screw orb, seriously, 4e went down some weird paths..)

The mage items would be like anything from "metamagic rods" to "keep duration of a spell group active as long as held and conscious" to "add Y or Z effect to spell group", all for BP.
This would benefit gish/spellsword archetype greatlyas well since they could then acquire BP traits of both mage and warrior items.

bkdub: Thanks, I don't get that much lately since I've been inactive due to work and school for a while...
You should get some too since you've pretty much steered this thread.
Zerosum also deserves credit for his labors in BP weapons.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: SiggyDevil on April 08, 2009, 01:29:54 AM
One weapon can do all those things, but the wielder needs to have the appropriate skill level in that sort of weapon.

And what happens if they lack skill?
Weapon is 'mundane' in their hands?
Deals less damage?
Less accurate?
Injures them on miss?
Higher incidence of critical fumble?


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: veekie on April 08, 2009, 01:45:42 AM
Depending on the exact weapon and how bad the lack of skill, a longsword is mundane(low hit bonus or whatnot), but a spiked chain is going to whack the proficient 0-1 wielder on his own head on a 1(on top of to hit penalties). Someone who's got at least proficient 2(assuming you need 3 to wield a spiked chain properly) would only suck at it, but not engage in self pwn.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: Sinfire Titan on April 08, 2009, 02:43:10 AM
What about combining this theoretical system with the one I mentioned in this post?

This is an idea I was toying around with while 4E was in development and I was working on the TC/RPG project here, but I'd like to see it used properly. Basically, weapons have special abilities that are granted to them based on their type (Simple, Martial, Exotic). You don't count effects like Ranged, Finessed, or Reach, but things like Trip-compatible or 4E's Brutal quality.

In example, this would be the Greataxe using this idea:

Greataxe: Two-Handed, Martial. 1d12, x3 Crit. Special Qualities: Surging, Powerful Blow, Intimidating.

Then this would be the effects listed above:

Surging: Each hit from this weapon allows you to make a Bull Rush as part of the attack. Each time you deal damage to an opponent with a weapon that has the Surging quality during an attack action or full attack action, make a Bull Rush check (as per Page XX of the PHB). If you succeed, the target is pushed backwards, and you may move adjacent to it as a free action. You may move up to double your base land speed in this way. If you fail the check, your opponent does not gain any advantage over you.

Powerful Blow: Each hit from this weapon is devastating to it's victim, reducing their ability to dodge future attacks. Each time you successfully deal damage to an opponent with an attack action using this weapon, the target takes a -1 penalty to AC. This penalty is cumulative, to a maximum penalty equal to the targets Dexterity modifier (to a minimum of 1, if the target does not have a positive Dexterity modifier or a Dex score of 10/11).

Intimidating: Simply drawing this weapon unnerves your opponents. At the beginning of the encounter, you may attempt to demoralize all opponents who can see you as a free action. Any opponent demoralized in this way is shaken until the end of the encounter or until you are unconscious, whichever comes first. In addition, you may demoralize any enemy who has an unblocked line of sight to you, rather than enemies you threaten in melee.


(Also, it would be a good idea to change the text of demoralize so that it doesn't stack, as you can cause an enemy to panic just by using Intimidate).


A simple weapon would have a default of 1 ability, a martial weapon has a default of 3 abilities, and an exotic weapon has a default of 5 abilities. Special materials, augment crystals, weapon templates, and weapon modifications would all grant additional special abilities like the ones above.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: veekie on April 08, 2009, 05:19:35 AM
Those look like good stuff to attach to higher proficiencies, especially the not entirely human proficiency levels above 3.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: Midnight_v on April 08, 2009, 08:43:50 AM
I don't like the critical fumble things.
Warrior types have enough shit to worry about. Actually "MISSING" is bad enough when you're fighting a bear. Having nunchuck whack you in the balls accidentaly is just shitty.

My thing is this. We should not make it prohibitive to use any weapon. Period.
No punishment required.
Negative reinforcement come from when you see the things a "fighter"(type) is doing.

Also it has to be a special thing too. Kind of like "Skill ranks". All the spells in the world and magic items and only a few artifacts actually give you "Ranks" in a skill.
If you tie it to Bab it has to be specific that it doesn't increase with magical enhancements to bab.

So who's played Elder Scrolls: Oblivion?
You can magically augment your strength or your ability with a blade to do more damage, but you still don't get the abilities that come with it. Which are Iirc. Disarms, knockdowns, and finally a paralysis effect.

Though frankly, going in this direction isn't really a "rebalance" of exotic weapons, but a "Re-write" of the weapons system en masse. Just sayin'

Those look like good stuff to attach to higher proficiencies, especially the not entirely human proficiency levels above 3.


Again I'm reminded of the Limit Soilder/Limit Knight that someone on wotc came up with. The weapons that grow with you.
If I can find a repost I will or if anyone has it quick saved. He had a "Trait" system for the class which was basically "magic" weapon enhancement as a class, but seems almost a natural extension of what Zero sum wrote. Goes a little futher but the idea is sound for magic weapons at least.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: veekie on April 08, 2009, 09:13:47 AM
Well, the fumble thing exists for an example, solely because some weapons start with a certain number of bonuses, and the nonproficient penalty level of 0 would only exist for a wizard anyway. Anyone with an All Simple Weapons clause will be getting reduction in functions(damage crapped, accuracy crapped) instead. Anyone proficient with all martial weapons would be getting at worst a to hit penalty with an exotic weapon.

Well, unless theres some weird ass minumum proficiency 6 weapon, which is likely an affront to the laws of physics, magic and common sense at the same time. Maybe a gun that shoots guns that shoots swords.I personally count that as a 4, it's not an affront to magic, yet.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: SKRP on April 08, 2009, 01:01:08 PM
Again I'm reminded of the Limit Soilder/Limit Knight that someone on wotc came up with. The weapons that grow with you.
If I can find a repost I will or if anyone has it quick saved. He had a "Trait" system for the class which was basically "magic" weapon enhancement as a class, but seems almost a natural extension of what Zero sum wrote. Goes a little futher but the idea is sound for magic weapons at least.


Limit Knight (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13656229&postcount=2) - the newest version.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: SiggyDevil on April 08, 2009, 01:19:11 PM
Maybe a gun that shoots guns that shoots swords.I personally count that as a 4, it's not an affront to magic, yet.

Or a weapon that attacks 5 seconds in to the past and future.

M_V: As veekie hinted, crit fumbles would not affect the trained user (and indeed they do suck; deters people from being non-casters even more!). Only people attempting to use weapons beyond their scope of power would fumble, anyone with even the smallest amount of matched training simply miss.
It's incentive to train in weapons rather than say "Oh, only a -4 penalty to hit, I'm not going to bother".

IMO the fumble limit should be an attack roll 10 lower than the target AC (for untrained users).
Users have an option of dealing their weapons damage to their self, to an ally within reach, or dropping the weapon. No charts. No fumble location roll.
They also suffer a -5 penalty to hit for each rank of training they lack which increases the occurance of fumbles. Using multiple weapons applies the greater penalty and doesn't stack.

Damage remains the same when untrained; inaccuracy and risk should be enough. This makes using weapons untrained an extremely dangerous option since it might very well kill the user in one hit (at lower levels) if a peasant character tries to swing a sword made for kings.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: veekie on April 08, 2009, 02:04:05 PM
Emphasis on some kind of Disintegration/Probability Blade for that last. A high level warrior who decided to stick with a regular longsword's got no particular hazards to it's use, though he could be so trained as to be supernaturally accurate, can bullrush on a hit, trips on a hit and get a shield bonus from it to boot. Regular longswords being proficient 2, I guess. Anyone who's proficient with simple weapons(a 1) only gets a to hit penalty.

Make sure the fumble only works if you've a proficiency of 2 or more below the minimum grade though.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: bkdubs123 on April 08, 2009, 06:01:19 PM
These new ideas are starting to seem more tedious than Incarnum. We have to keep it simple since it'll be used every round of every combat.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: AlterFrom on April 08, 2009, 07:02:46 PM
So...proposal: (DISCLAIMER: WIP)

1: Remove all weapons. All of them.
2: Institute BP system for creating new weapons. But don't write up any new ones. Instead, the following:
  • Feat Change(s): Weapon Proficiency (Simple, Martial, Exotic) grant a "pool" of BP. Size to be determined, but something similar to what's been laid out (2/5/8 or something). Or heck, tie it into the Weapon [Something] feat below.
  • Proficiency Changes. This is the most complicated part; instead of proficiency with weapons, you gain class proficiency with weapon abilities and some BP. Magey-types might get just weapon dice and criticals while Bruiser-types could get all of the abilities; BP is similarly biased towards Bruisers.
  • BAB-tie-in. Every so many points of BAB, you gain a certain number of BP and/or access to a certain number of weapon abilities. Basically, more BAB = more weapon options.
  • New Feat(s): Weapon [Something]. Gain BP and/or weapon ability access. Not sure which or both. Maybe other feats for really strange weapon abilities.
  • Assignment: Performed upon purchase of a "weapon". As follows:
    • "Purchase" your weapon. Weapons are priced generically, as Simple/Martial/Exotic; MW prices are unchanged, as are enchantments. Special Materials are similarly unchanged (or not, not sure). Each weapon type has a limit on BP to be assigned to it, with prices increasing accordingly.
    • Weapon groups/types. Not sure how to handle this except to offer a single (or multiple) free weapon types to assign. However, this could be abusable. Ideas? It's necessary for proper interaction with some class abilities/feats/etc.
    • Spend BP into your "weapon." You assign weapon abilities that you have access to until you run out of BP to spend. This takes [Amount of Time], and at the end of it your previous "weapon" is no longer "imbued" (Yeah, this makes almost no sense. Anyone got a better idea?).
  • New Weapon Ability: Split (X BP). Allows you to use your BP pool in another weapon. (We need a way to allow for multiple weapons at once, but not an infinite number. Unless I'm seriously overestimating the ability to have multiple weapon setups? This same sentiment actually applies to the above bullet as well).

Ex:
Tordek (a Fighter) has class access to all weapon abilities and 3 innate BP. He selects Weapon Prof (Exotic), bringing his pool to 11. He buys an exotic weapon for...I dunno, 100 gp. He assigns BP:
Weapon is Large (and thus 2H): 0 BP
Damage Die +1 size: 2 BP
Dice up, Size down: 2 BP
Crit Chance 18-20: 2 BP
Crit Mult x3: 2 BP
3 other BP.
Tordek's weapon does 2d8 damage, with a critical multiplier of 18-20/x3. It took him 100 gp and maybe a day of training to set it up.

The numbers obviously need work, but the idea is there.  :)
Maybe Weapon Prof overlaps with your class pool, and Weapon [Something] has WP(Ex) as a pre-req?
Oh, wait, maybe Weapon Prof is granted by class up to a certain point, and grants only BP. W[Somthng] then has WP(Ex) as a pre-req.

Something else I thought of with this BP system is that it'd be a great time to get a standardize dice progression.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: SiggyDevil on April 08, 2009, 09:23:52 PM
These new ideas are starting to seem more tedious than Incarnum. We have to keep it simple since it'll be used every round of every combat.

Heh. I share your concern for that. It's the inevitable fate of any ongoing contribution.

"Hey, I have this idea we could throw in too.."
"Put it in!"
and soon you have 150+ abilities to keep track of.

As for multiple BP power results from weapon hits, there should be two categories:
• Normal Hit/Critical Hit; typical mild spell effect, no save, perhaps a 1 round status effect
• Natural 20; more powerful stuff by a magnitude of about x2 output, sometimes save if the debuff would endanger a life such as Paralysis (but certainly no insta-kill)

Between those two there are many options provided when a weapon hits, but only one effect may be selected with each attack, chosen after hit confirmed.
This way we could potentially expand a weapon's options to 20-something or more but they won't have an influence in battle at the same time.

Also, the ideal I have in mind is Bleach, the quintessential swordsmanship setting.
.. well, if you leave out the Bankai transformations at least...
Warriors are quick, tough, deal with casters and archers competently, and the diverse weapons are badass.
Seriously. A katana that becomes a swarm of petals or a giant bone-snake? Sign me up.


AlterFrom: On the matter of die type changes, I believe that not many gamers actively remember or understand that (on an average) 1d6+1 is about the same as 1d8, if not better.
Perhaps rather than bumping up or down die types we could start with a basic type according to weapon size and then increase multiples according to training ranks.

For instance, Swords 2 grants +2d8 dice on a 1d8 sword, and +2d10 on a 1d10 sword.
This wouldn't cost anything beyond the feats used to train. No BP needed.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: veekie on April 08, 2009, 10:42:01 PM
Quote
Ex:
Tordek (a Fighter) has class access to all weapon abilities and 3 innate BP. He selects Weapon Prof (Exotic), bringing his pool to 11. He buys an exotic weapon for...I dunno, 100 gp. He assigns BP:
Weapon is Large (and thus 2H): 0 BP
Damage Die +1 size: 2 BP
Dice up, Size down: 2 BP
Crit Chance 18-20: 2 BP
Crit Mult x3: 2 BP
3 other BP.
Tordek's weapon does 2d8 damage, with a critical multiplier of 18-20/x3. It took him 100 gp and maybe a day of training to set it up.
Could save a good bit for work in play by writing up some 'standard' base weapons, the sort militia typically deal in. AKA the SRD weapons. Prespent BPs up to the 3rd level of proficiency, after that, you're basically inventing whatever weapon style you're happy with.

Speaking of which, I assume we're folding ranged weapons into this? The ability to wire-fu thrown weapons at the 4th(or more) level of proficiency so they return without need for the returning enchantment lets throwers be more than mad bombermen/shuriken chucker/hulking hurler/bloodstorm blade. You'd actually get some 'traditional' throwers back in play, since their mundane weapons are preenhanced to a certain degree by skill..


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: SiggyDevil on April 08, 2009, 11:12:41 PM
Speaking of which, I assume we're folding ranged weapons into this? The ability to wire-fu thrown weapons at the 4th(or more) level of proficiency so they return without need for the returning enchantment lets throwers be more than mad bombermen/shuriken chucker/hulking hurler/bloodstorm blade. You'd actually get some 'traditional' throwers back in play, since their mundane weapons are preenhanced to a certain degree by skill..

Why of course. I love Gauntlet.
OTOH you can also do animu-style weapons blasting, slamming, or slicing wide area shapes with slashes and bashes.
Essentially the same thing, mechanically. More of a thematic change although it does remove the question "What if the enemy catches my weapon?"

Case in point; "Getsuga".

http://images.google.com/images?q=getsuga

So you have these options for melee-rangeds, perhaps more:
• Thrown and returning
• Thrown and teleports back
• Thrown, but a copy leaves the weapon rather than the original
• Area Effect
• Projectile from weapon (energy or solid force)
• Single distant point is treated as being 'in melee' for each attack, nothing is shot
• Long extended reach
• Attack through small dimensional rift
• Air shockwave from power of a swing
They do the same thing, aside from Area, Projectile, and Reach having a better thematic tie-in for harming more than one target in the same attack.

Fitting 'shooting' ranged weapons might be a tad more difficult since enhanced crit or damage totally breaks encounters.
Reason: multiple arrow shots, far more than melee attacks, per round.
At a distance.
With no risk to the offense, while defense suffers a hail of metal.

I'm thinking that ranged attacks should have a penalty of about 25% accuracy loss, or melee gets that much (+4) bonus, to make entering melee even worthwhile.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: veekie on April 08, 2009, 11:54:25 PM
Thats just a math issue then, you just need to cost ranged attacks appropriately. :D
Flavor being mutable, screw what it looks like, an area attack is an area attack. But I figure those mostly come in at proficiency 4-6, though I suppose since alchemist's fire and other such small burst grenades can also be designed with BP, just need to cost area attacks effectively.

Multi mode weapons could be designed with each side independently, so a dagger is built as both a ranged(thrown) and melee weapon, with an X BP cost to buy dual mode. Or would it be preferable to have the less complex, but also slightly less flexible purchasing of the 'ranged(thrown)', 'ranged(ammo)' or 'melee' quality at a fixed cost, for a particular starting range increment for the former two?

A couple of ways, mathematically.
One is to make range increments cost more, hence a high range weapon starts with low BP. This screws over low level archery types, and depending on the number of build points available.

Another is to make range increments BP cost a multiplier to the ranged functions of the weapon(assuming you have things like swordbows). So damage costs more for a 100ft range increment than a 30ft  range increment than a melee range. This makes thrown weapons like daggers somewhat tricky to cost, as a 10ft range increment is only marginally better than Reach in terms of range.

Theres also making a flat cost multiplier apply for ammunition weapons only, a thrower has the same number of attacks available as melee without taking Master Thrower. This looks to be the smoothest solution. In exchange, throwers who don't buy either returning, or have quick draw can't pour out the same kind of attack rate. Mitigation in the form of increased weapon load time is available, which can be remitigated via feats.

Also:
Ditch the max range entirely, since it's naturally derived from the range increment and the wielder's attack bonus. He can only hit something at such a range before the increments and the various concealment/cover modifiers accrued from the distance add up.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: Kuroimaken on April 09, 2009, 01:00:00 AM
Damn sleep getting to me... can't... make... constructive criticism...


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: SiggyDevil on April 09, 2009, 01:07:40 AM
Archery weapons (along with guns, etc) would be nerfed simplest with lower base BP.

With character advancement the personal pool of BP would catch up quickly though.

IMO bumping up the BP cost by 1 for everything would work best, for now.
Not so sure about any hybrid modes or individual BP per type.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: SiggyDevil on April 09, 2009, 01:29:49 AM
Or as you put it, veek, cost the ammo weapons for their incremental shooting ranges.

Shoot Range 30ft : BP -1
Shoot Range 60ft : BP -2
and maybe
Shoot Range 90ft : BP -3

Anything more would need to be restricted to higher levels, but with the advantage of a reduced cost.

Melee/Thrown ones all get a base of 10 feet by default and would probably be better off with a non-stacking better upgrade of distance at benchmark levels, rather than multiply base values.



Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: Ashtagon on April 13, 2009, 02:40:46 AM
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=694416

I just found what I think might be where this points system for weapons may have first been posted.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: JaronK on April 13, 2009, 02:53:00 AM
That system says the Sai is overpowered.  I don't buy it.

EDIT:  Didn't notice someone put the actual system in there later down in the thread.

JaronK


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: SiggyDevil on April 14, 2009, 02:59:01 AM
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=694416

I just found what I think might be where this points system for weapons may have first been posted.


Not the same as Zerosum's. and I believe both concepts were derived without shared information which would put greater success in the similar results.
If we compare all versions (yes, all, including any more found) we could probably reach a more accurate perspective on how the values interact.

Still, it's good to start with the basics provided by PHB, but balance just doesn't work when you consider the value of a single feat placed in Exotic WP or even the investment of a whole Martial class for the proficiency.
It has to count for something in combat, hence my push for greater point totals in MWP and EWP....


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: Kerrick on May 05, 2009, 11:46:59 AM
So after rebalancing feats and spells I decided something needed to be done with Exotic Weapons. They are just never worth taking a feat for, or if they are the weapon just ends up being too good. So I mulled the idea over, and I couldn't come up with any direction to go in, but then I brought it up to a friend who immediately thought to give Exotic Weapons requirements, like feats have, in order to wield them.
I think it's an excellent idea. I was thinking this over a bit last night, after reading this thread, and I came up with a few ideas:

Keep all exotic weapons as "exotic", but in this case, "exotic" means "martial weapons that have extra abilities that require additional training".

Ditch the EWP feat, and assign prereqs to all exotic weapons.

Anyone who can use martial weapons can use exotic weapons, but without the prereqs, you can't use the additional benefits (or suffer a penalty when wielding it, as applicable).

So then we have...

Bastard Sword - Requirements: Str 13. Benefit: Can wield it one-handed.

Bolas: Str 13, Dex 13. Benefit: Without the prereqs, you suffer a -2 attack penalty.

Crossbow, hand: Dex 13, Int 13. Benefit: Without the prereqs, you suffer a -2 attack penalty. You can also load it with one hand.

Crossbow, repeating: Dex 15. Benefit: Without the prereqs, you suffer a -2 attack penalty.

Dire flail: Str 15. Benefit: You can use this weapon as a double weapon.

Dwarven Urgrosh: Dwarf and Str 13, OR Str 15. Benefit: You can use this as a double weapon (otherwise you're limited to using it as a long-handled waraxe).

Dwarven Waraxe: Dwarf, or Str 13. Benefit: Without the prereqs, you suffer a -2 attack penalty (it's an unbalanced weapon, heavy toward the head).

Gnome hooked hammer: Gnome and Dex 13 OR Str 13, Dex 13. Benefit: You can use this as a double weapon (otherwise you're limited to using the weapon as a hammer only, dealing 1d8 bludgeoning).

Kama: Shouldn't be exotic. It's nothing more than a modified sickle, with exactly the same stats. I would actually nerf the sickle's damage to 1d4, since it's not designed to be used as a weapon, and this would make the kama a better choice.

Net: Dex 13, Wis 13. Benefit: Without the prereqs, you suffer a -2 attack penalty and it takes twice as long to fold. Another weapon that shouldn't be exotic, but nets are hard to use properly - if you don't throw it right, it won't spread out and catch someone.

Nunchaku: Dex 15. Benefit: Without the prereqs, you suffer a -2 attack penalty. (I'm thinking about adding some ability to entangle/disarm; I've seen it many times in movies, where the martial artist wraps the nunchaku around a weapon or the opponent's hand/arm, but I'm not sure how to make it work in D&D terms).

Orc Double Axe: Str 15 OR Orc and Str 13. Benefit: Without the prereqs, you suffer a -2 attack penalty.

Sai: Str 13, Dex 13. Benefit: You gain the bonus to disarm attempts.

Shuriken: Shouldn't be exotic. They're thrown weapons that deal 1d2 damage - whoopdedoo. Make them martial and have done with it.

Siangham: Dex 13. Benefit: ???. I'm honestly unsure what to do with this thing, since I have no idea what a siangham IS, beyond what I can see from the picture. It looks like nothing more than a hand-held dart. Maybe it enables you to throw it as a dagger?

Spiked chain: Dex 15. Benefit: Can use the chain to make trip/entangle attacks. (On a side note, if you drop the chain's damage to 1d6, it becomes perfectly balanced via either of the value systems posted above.)

Two-bladed sword: Should not be an exotic weapon - all it is, is a staff with blades on both ends. If we use the percentage pricing system, removing the exotic tag would give it a value of 105%, at the high end of balanced. Nerfing the damage to 1d6 (which might not be a bad idea) would put it back at 100%.

Whip: Dex 13. Benefit: You can make trip/entangle attacks. (The requirement is lower here because whips deal less damage.)


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: Jradd7 on June 27, 2009, 03:16:30 PM
Shuriken: Shouldn't be exotic. They're thrown weapons that deal 1d2 damage - whoopdedoo. Make them martial and have done with it.

I don't know how much it matters to everyone, but I thought the thing here is that you can flurry with it (probably even two-handed), as a special monk weapon, and if they're enchanted you can actually manage a large amount of damage because I think they are a free action to draw, like ammo or something like that since I'm AFB.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: Kuroimaken on June 27, 2009, 04:52:57 PM
Shuriken: Shouldn't be exotic. They're thrown weapons that deal 1d2 damage - whoopdedoo. Make them martial and have done with it.

I don't know how much it matters to everyone, but I thought the thing here is that you can flurry with it (probably even two-handed), as a special monk weapon, and if they're enchanted you can actually manage a large amount of damage because I think they are a free action to draw, like ammo or something like that since I'm AFB.

Technically, the good thing about the shuriken is that it counts as ammo, and thus it's easy to enchant. Flurry technically doesn't apply to it because a monk can only use flurry with melee weapons - stupid, I know, but there you have it.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: Kerrick on June 28, 2009, 01:49:55 AM
Technically, the good thing about the shuriken is that it counts as ammo, and thus it's easy to enchant. Flurry technically doesn't apply to it because a monk can only use flurry with melee weapons - stupid, I know, but there you have it.
Technically, it specifically states you can flurry with shuriken. :) There's nothing in there about melee weapons, just a list of what you can use. I tend to agree with you, but they're so minor (and really, every ninja movie you see has them flinging shuriken around) that it's not a big deal.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: Kuroimaken on June 28, 2009, 11:25:03 AM
Technically, the good thing about the shuriken is that it counts as ammo, and thus it's easy to enchant. Flurry technically doesn't apply to it because a monk can only use flurry with melee weapons - stupid, I know, but there you have it.
Technically, it specifically states you can flurry with shuriken. :) There's nothing in there about melee weapons, just a list of what you can use. I tend to agree with you, but they're so minor (and really, every ninja movie you see has them flinging shuriken around) that it's not a big deal.
That's what I get for posting while AFB.  :p


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: Jradd7 on June 28, 2009, 09:36:24 PM
Technically, the good thing about the shuriken is that it counts as ammo, and thus it's easy to enchant. Flurry technically doesn't apply to it because a monk can only use flurry with melee weapons - stupid, I know, but there you have it.

Technically, it specifically states you can flurry with shuriken. :) There's nothing in there about melee weapons, just a list of what you can use. I tend to agree with you, but they're so minor (and really, every ninja movie you see has them flinging shuriken around) that it's not a big deal.

So, I was right on the whole? That doesn't really happen a lot, but yeah, I think we can agree then that as a monk weapon, TWFing, flurried, free action to draw, easily enchanted makes the shuriken likely worth some exotic pre-reqs to be used that way. Can Rapid Shot/Many Shot/similar feats also be added in and used in conjunction with some combination of these other features? Then again, if someone apparently has to meet so many requirements already simply to be able to do all that in the first place... are there really any pre-reqs to add? Probably not... maybe it was a moot point from the start...


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: Kuroimaken on June 29, 2009, 12:27:09 AM
Technically, the good thing about the shuriken is that it counts as ammo, and thus it's easy to enchant. Flurry technically doesn't apply to it because a monk can only use flurry with melee weapons - stupid, I know, but there you have it.

Technically, it specifically states you can flurry with shuriken. :) There's nothing in there about melee weapons, just a list of what you can use. I tend to agree with you, but they're so minor (and really, every ninja movie you see has them flinging shuriken around) that it's not a big deal.

So, I was right on the whole? That doesn't really happen a lot, but yeah, I think we can agree then that as a monk weapon, TWFing, flurried, free action to draw, easily enchanted makes the shuriken likely worth some exotic pre-reqs to be used that way. Can Rapid Shot/Many Shot/similar feats also be added in and used in conjunction with some combination of these other features? Then again, if someone apparently has to meet so many requirements already simply to be able to do all that in the first place... are there really any pre-reqs to add? Probably not... maybe it was a moot point from the start...

I just checked on the monk's flurry of blows ability - no mention of it being melee only. But then again, the shuriken is the only ranged weapon on that list. Pretty much everything that applies to ranged throwing weapons applies to shuriken, but I don't think you can flurry and use Rapid shot/Manyshot with it. And even as a throwing weapon it's not much to look at. The range is pathetic, so is base damage and crit, and the only class that might get some use out of the thing can't use the class feature that has to do with it efficiently.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: Sinfire Titan on June 29, 2009, 02:26:26 AM
I just checked on the monk's flurry of blows ability - no mention of it being melee only. But then again, the shuriken is the only ranged weapon on that list. Pretty much everything that applies to ranged throwing weapons applies to shuriken, but I don't think you can flurry and use Rapid shot/Manyshot with it. And even as a throwing weapon it's not much to look at. The range is pathetic, so is base damage and crit, and the only class that might get some use out of the thing can't use the class feature that has to do with it efficiently.

Well, one of the strategies we advocated in the Utility Belt handbook was +1 Explosive Shurikens. That's gotta count for something, right?


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: Kerrick on June 29, 2009, 10:52:09 AM
Pretty much everything that applies to ranged throwing weapons applies to shuriken, but I don't think you can flurry and use Rapid shot/Manyshot with it.
I'd tend to agree.

Quote
And even as a throwing weapon it's not much to look at. The range is pathetic, so is base damage and crit, and the only class that might get some use out of the thing can't use the class feature that has to do with it efficiently.
Yeah, that's why I just made them martial.


Title: Re: Rebalancing Exotic Weapons
Post by: Kuroimaken on June 29, 2009, 11:31:50 AM
I just checked on the monk's flurry of blows ability - no mention of it being melee only. But then again, the shuriken is the only ranged weapon on that list. Pretty much everything that applies to ranged throwing weapons applies to shuriken, but I don't think you can flurry and use Rapid shot/Manyshot with it. And even as a throwing weapon it's not much to look at. The range is pathetic, so is base damage and crit, and the only class that might get some use out of the thing can't use the class feature that has to do with it efficiently.

Well, one of the strategies we advocated in the Utility Belt handbook was +1 Explosive Shurikens. That's gotta count for something, right?

Yes, but that can be done to any throwing weapon, or even ammo...