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Play Like You Have To! => D&D Deliberations => Topic started by: Endarire on October 13, 2011, 07:22:28 AM



Title: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: Endarire on October 13, 2011, 07:22:28 AM
Chart! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilityScores)

People complain often about a caster's capacity for spell slinging.  A primary caster's number of available spells of his highest level are almost always his best ability.

Eventually, it becomes difficult for a caster to cast all his spells in an adventuring period before needing to rest.

What are y'alls' feelings on this?


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: Sinfire Titan on October 13, 2011, 09:37:33 AM
I feel the Tier 2s and up do not need bonus spells at the mid-to-high levels. The lower tier ones can have them, but I don't think the higher tier classes need them past 7th level.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: Prime32 on October 13, 2011, 11:53:34 AM
Really, I think all full casters should use different ability scores to determine save DCs and bonus spells. It increases MAD and variation.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: oslecamo on October 13, 2011, 01:16:29 PM
I also have been considering that for some time, just like Str is for melee/combat maneuvers, dex for ranged/AC, Con is for HP.

How about Int 10+Spell level to be able to learn/cast it, Wisdom for spell DCs and Cha for extra spells?


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: SneeR on October 13, 2011, 05:29:25 PM
I also have been considering that for some time, just like Str is for melee/combat maneuvers, dex for ranged/AC, Con is for HP.

How about Int 10+Spell level to be able to learn/cast it, Wisdom for spell DCs and Cha for extra spells?

Okay, well that's a little dissociated (http://thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/dissociated-mechanics.html). The MAD of melee characters makes sense. So, why does a wizard, whose skills in magic are based entirely on memorization, study, and recitation, require WIS or CHA to cast? Unfortunately, basing everything on INT makes the most sense, unless you alter the fluff of the class.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: oslecamo on October 13, 2011, 05:35:35 PM
Okay, well that's a little dissociated (http://thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/dissociated-mechanics.html). The MAD of melee characters makes sense. So, why does a wizard, whose skills in magic are based entirely on memorization, study, and recitation, require WIS or CHA to cast? Unfortunately, basing everything on INT makes the most sense, unless you alter the fluff of the class.

Memorization is a matter of self-discipline. It demands wisdom to make sure you remember every detail every time. An alooft wizard with low wisdom forgets important details when stressed. Recitation demands good tongue work. A dorky wizard with no charisma can't make the proper sylabes, specially in the heat of battle, while a charismatic one can put just the right entoation with naturality.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: SneeR on October 13, 2011, 05:58:22 PM
Okay, well that's a little dissociated (http://thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/dissociated-mechanics.html). The MAD of melee characters makes sense. So, why does a wizard, whose skills in magic are based entirely on memorization, study, and recitation, require WIS or CHA to cast? Unfortunately, basing everything on INT makes the most sense, unless you alter the fluff of the class.
Memorization is a matter of self-discipline. It demands wisdom to make sure you remember every detail every time. An alooft wizard with low wisdom forgets important details when stressed. Recitation demands good tongue work. A dorky wizard with no charisma can't make the proper sylabes, specially in the heat of battle, while a charismatic one can put just the right entoation with naturality.

Okay, good start. But why do you get more spells per day from pronouncing syllables well? Why are your spells stronger because you remain stoic in the face of danger?

Perhaps you should get more spells per day based on WIS, since you know exactly what you need to do to memorize more spells, and the DC is based on CHA because you can put more emphasis behind the syllables and motions the spells require!


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: Bozwevial on October 13, 2011, 06:59:10 PM
I'm pretty much against that one, because a) it ties the fluff down way, way too much and b) any caster, no matter what type, has a "you must be this smart to ride" sign slapped in front of them. They all need an Intelligence of 15 if they ever want 9th level spells.

Honestly, I'm not a big fan of the ability score requirement for spells (or anything, really). We don't make martial adepts meet arbitrary Strength requirements to use Strike of Perfect Clarity, so why should we enforce those requirements for casters? If you want to make your half-orc wizard, you can do that. He won't be as great at it as a cerebrum elf, but he'll get level-appropriate stuff and be able to use it.

If you want to increase MAD, though, expand it to, I don't know, a two-score system and throw out the ability score requirements. Your primary casting stat determines spells per day while your secondary casting stat determines save DCs.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: veekie on October 13, 2011, 08:56:34 PM
Well, splitting up the casting stat has plenty of perks. You see in a lot of media that spellcasters have three main metrics, knowledge, skill and power.
Knowledge is what spells you know - Intelligence limits spell access(with some spells being more difficult to learn) and spells known.
Skill is how effectively you deliver the spell - This one is class dependent(but closer to a Wis thing), and sets the DC.
Power is how much is in your bank - Most commonly Charisma, this is your raw magical brawn. How much power you can afford before you run low, or for more powerful spells, whether you can do them at all.

In such a setup, you might for example, have the Int to access high level spells, and the Wis for the DC, but as your Cha is too low, you need to spend actions combining lower level slots(2 slots of a level = 1 slot of the next level) until you have the bang for the spell, etc.

Heck, the mono-stat casting is more dissociated than multi-stat.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: Bozwevial on October 13, 2011, 09:15:19 PM
If you want to limit spell access, that's fine, but tie it to your primary casting stat. It shouldn't be Intelligence no matter what sort of caster you are, because that sets limitations on what you can reasonably do from both a fluff and crunch perspective. Now instead of half-orcs not making good wizards and sorcerers, they don't make good casters of any kind, which is bad for both the player and the DM because playing an avatar of Gruumsh becomes less viable in the same way that including one in the orc warlord's encampment becomes less viable.

The knowledge/skill/power thing can be rolled into two stats pretty easily, depending on the flavor of the class. Wizards, under such a system, might have Intelligence as a primary stat and Wisdom as a secondary stat--their knowledge of the laws of magic lets them memorize more spells by reducing the effort needed to prepare them through rote mastery, while a combination of keen observation of their surroundings and their inherent force of will makes their spells harder to resist. Clerics have Wisdom as their primary and Charisma as their secondary--the deeper their connection to their deity, the more magic they're entrusted with/able to channel, and the more powerful their spirit is, the more potent the spell is. And so on. Maybe you have a blood magus who uses Charisma as his primary and Constitution as his secondary.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: veekie on October 13, 2011, 10:06:30 PM
Well, an alternative is to pick two of the triad as stats and then waive the third, so wizards for example, might get Knowledge and Skill, with Power built straight into level advancement, while Clerics waive Knowledge and Sorcerors waive Skill, etc.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: Bozwevial on October 13, 2011, 10:45:29 PM
I like it. Sorcerers have the raw power necessary to blow away the opposition regardless, clerics don't need to learn about magic to channel a deity's power, wizards use their mastery of the system to cheat and channel more power than they should be able to...


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: SneeR on October 14, 2011, 12:24:37 AM
I like it. Sorcerers have the raw power necessary to blow away the opposition regardless, clerics don't need to learn about magic to channel a deity's power, wizards use their mastery of the system to cheat and channel more power than they should be able to...

Me, too! Now to translate that into mechanics...


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: Prime32 on October 14, 2011, 06:55:33 AM
You have an effective X score based on your level, if higher than your existing score? (eg. sorcerer spell DC = 10 + half sorc level + spell level)
You use one of the other two scores instead? (eg. sorcerer uses Cha for both bonus spells and DC)

If you want to limit spell access, that's fine, but tie it to your primary casting stat. It shouldn't be Intelligence no matter what sort of caster you are, because that sets limitations on what you can reasonably do from both a fluff and crunch perspective. Now instead of half-orcs not making good wizards and sorcerers, they don't make good casters of any kind, which is bad for both the player and the DM because playing an avatar of Gruumsh becomes less viable in the same way that including one in the orc warlord's encampment becomes less viable.
This is the "ugly people have low Cha" problem. You could solve some of those problems by giving RSLs which let them substitute Str/Con for Int.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: oslecamo on October 14, 2011, 07:52:31 AM
If you want to limit spell access, that's fine, but tie it to your primary casting stat. It shouldn't be Intelligence no matter what sort of caster you are, because that sets limitations on what you can reasonably do from both a fluff and crunch perspective. Now instead of half-orcs not making good wizards and sorcerers, they don't make good casters of any kind, which is bad for both the player and the DM because playing an avatar of Gruumsh becomes less viable in the same way that including one in the orc warlord's encampment becomes less viable.
This is the "ugly people have low Cha" problem. You could solve some of those problems by giving RSLs which let them substitute Str/Con for Int.

But now fluff-wise, aren't orcs simply suposed to be bad spellcasters, and more on the choppy side(biggest Str bonus on the La 0 races)? I fully expect for an "avatar of Gruumsh" being the strongest martial dude on the encapment. The orc god demands his followers to prove their worth in raw combat, not hiding behind petty magics! Asking for the avatar of Gruumsh to be a talented spellcaster would be like asking for the Avatar of Pelor to be a necropolitan necromancer if you ask me.

In particular because if an orc wizard uses Str for casting, then suddenly every wizard wants to be an orc, because I don't recall any la 0 race that grants +4 to Int (and with water orc you're geting +2 to Con as a bonus).


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: Kajhera on October 14, 2011, 09:13:36 AM
If you want to limit spell access, that's fine, but tie it to your primary casting stat. It shouldn't be Intelligence no matter what sort of caster you are, because that sets limitations on what you can reasonably do from both a fluff and crunch perspective. Now instead of half-orcs not making good wizards and sorcerers, they don't make good casters of any kind, which is bad for both the player and the DM because playing an avatar of Gruumsh becomes less viable in the same way that including one in the orc warlord's encampment becomes less viable.
This is the "ugly people have low Cha" problem. You could solve some of those problems by giving RSLs which let them substitute Str/Con for Int.

But now fluff-wise, aren't orcs simply suposed to be bad spellcasters, and more on the choppy side(biggest Str bonus on the La 0 races)? I fully expect for an "avatar of Gruumsh" being the strongest martial dude on the encapment. The orc god demands his followers to prove their worth in raw combat, not hiding behind petty magics! Asking for the avatar of Gruumsh to be a talented spellcaster would be like asking for the Avatar of Pelor to be a necropolitan necromancer if you ask me.

In particular because if an orc wizard uses Str for casting, then suddenly every wizard wants to be an orc, because I don't recall any la 0 race that grants +4 to Int (and with water orc you're geting +2 to Con as a bonus).

Orcs do all sorts of things like putting out their eyes and ritually scarring themselves to gain martial prowess through ritualistic means. Notsure where I got it from but in campaigns where I'm an orc magic is generally considered the dominion of non-warriors though; which is much more likely to include females guarding the home than warriors raiding. Druid is probably one of the more flavorful options for a follower of Luthic.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: oslecamo on October 14, 2011, 09:27:09 AM
Orcs do all sorts of things like putting out their eyes and ritually scarring themselves to gain martial prowess through ritualistic means. Notsure where I got it from but in campaigns where I'm an orc magic is generally considered the dominion of non-warriors though;

You mean the Eye of Gruumsh prc, that doesn't need any spellcasting to enter, neither grants it? Ritual scarring=/=magic.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: Kajhera on October 14, 2011, 09:34:32 AM
Orcs do all sorts of things like putting out their eyes and ritually scarring themselves to gain martial prowess through ritualistic means. Notsure where I got it from but in campaigns where I'm an orc magic is generally considered the dominion of non-warriors though;

You mean the Eye of Gruumsh prc, that doesn't need any spellcasting to enter, neither grants it? Ritual scarring=/=magic.
Toughening your skin isn't. Putting out your eye in exchange for blindsight is.

Yes, I know it's marked (Ex). I'm just in denial.  :(


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: oslecamo on October 14, 2011, 09:50:17 AM
Toughening your skin isn't. Putting out your eye in exchange for blindsight is.

Yes, I know it's marked (Ex).

So you're basically saying martials can't have nice things? That the Eye of Gruumsh doesn't gain blindsight because he has  learned to use his other senses better now that he's lost an eye, but because he just learned how to cast non-magic spells that work in AMF?

Nevermind, saw your edit.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: Kajhera on October 14, 2011, 09:58:57 AM
Toughening your skin isn't. Putting out your eye in exchange for blindsight is.

Yes, I know it's marked (Ex).

So you're basically saying martials can't have nice things? That the Eye of Gruumsh doesn't gain blindsight because he has  learned to use his other senses better now that he's lost an eye, but because he just learned how to cast non-magic spells that work in AMF?

Nevermind, saw your edit.

Well, he does gain power through worship. Just, in this case, it's extraordinary, not supernatural, power...


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: altpersona on October 14, 2011, 10:21:06 AM
im fond of the idea (i have not put much thought into it yet) of doing away with the standard spell progression charts and just giving casters the existing progression based on ability scores.

mr 18 ab score caster who never raises their score will only get 1 - 4 th lvl spells, one each.

scores in the 80 - 90 range put 9 spells across the board. and a measly 28 gets your first 9th.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: ImperatorK on October 14, 2011, 10:48:32 AM
im fond of the idea (i have not put much thought into it yet) of doing away with the standard spell progression charts and just giving casters the existing progression based on ability scores.

mr 18 ab score caster who never raises their score will only get 1 - 4 th lvl spells, one each.

scores in the 80 - 90 range put 9 spells across the board. and a measly 28 gets your first 9th.
Wait. You mean: get rid of all the spell slots granted by class levels and give only those from high casting stat?


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: SneeR on October 14, 2011, 11:08:00 AM
im fond of the idea (i have not put much thought into it yet) of doing away with the standard spell progression charts and just giving casters the existing progression based on ability scores.

mr 18 ab score caster who never raises their score will only get 1 - 4 th lvl spells, one each.

scores in the 80 - 90 range put 9 spells across the board. and a measly 28 gets your first 9th.
Wait. You mean: get rid of all the spell slots granted by class levels and give only those from high casting stat?
That's what he seems to mean.
But I don't think that that will fix the problem. When they actually manage to pop off a 9th level spell, it will be just as broken (not to mention having an insane DC) as any other 9th level spell, just more rare.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: Redeemer of Ogar on October 14, 2011, 12:03:14 PM
Well, an alternative is to pick two of the triad as stats and then waive the third, so wizards for example, might get Knowledge and Skill, with Power built straight into level advancement, while Clerics waive Knowledge and Sorcerors waive Skill, etc.

That definitely has promise.

Something noone has suggested yet, probably for obvious but misguided reasons: Why not use CON to determine bonus spells? In other words, how well can you overchannel your body's capabilities?

Stick with your primary stat to learn/cast spells.

The real question is, what to use to determine DC? If you want to go Full-on MAD, use DEX to determine reflex DCs (how well do you aim?), CHA to determine willpower DCs (how forceful and convincing are your projections), and either CON or your primary casting stat for fortitude DCs (how much power are you channeling at once?)


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: veekie on October 14, 2011, 12:13:28 PM
Quote
Why not use CON to determine bonus spells? In other words, how well can you overchannel your body's capabilities?
Standard trope for wizards and a lot of priests are the frail sort, so unless the magic comes out of your hp...


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: Redeemer of Ogar on October 14, 2011, 12:39:24 PM
Quote
Why not use CON to determine bonus spells? In other words, how well can you overchannel your body's capabilities?
Standard trope for wizards and a lot of priests are the frail sort, so unless the magic comes out of your hp...

Which is fine, the frail wizards don't get to go charging around all day slinging bonus spells, because they get tired quickly. They can still lob a few really powerful game-changers, which is all the trope requires.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: SneeR on October 14, 2011, 12:50:16 PM
Quote
Why not use CON to determine bonus spells? In other words, how well can you overchannel your body's capabilities?
Standard trope for wizards and a lot of priests are the frail sort, so unless the magic comes out of your hp...

Which is fine, the frail wizards don't get to go charging around all day slinging bonus spells, because they get tired quickly. They can still lob a few really powerful game-changers, which is all the trope requires.

If the mechanics do not support an archetype, that archetype will not be emulated. If casters get HP, Fortitude bonus, and bonus spells from CON, that suddenly becomes a necessary stat to max out to be a successful caster in D&D.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: ImperatorK on October 14, 2011, 01:01:23 PM
Hell, for all casters Con is often the second highest stat regardless.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: SneeR on October 14, 2011, 01:34:48 PM
Hell, for all casters Con is often the second highest stat regardless.

So why reward that? Almost no other class has any ability based on CON because it is something that every character already wants high.

Also, what about undead wizards? Do they not get extra spells per day?


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: altpersona on October 14, 2011, 02:12:30 PM
im fond of the idea (i have not put much thought into it yet) of doing away with the standard spell progression charts and just giving casters the existing progression based on ability scores.

mr 18 ab score caster who never raises their score will only get 1 - 4 th lvl spells, one each.

scores in the 80 - 90 range put 9 spells across the board. and a measly 28 gets your first 9th.
Wait. You mean: get rid of all the spell slots granted by class levels and give only those from high casting stat?


yes, thats what i meant.

yes 9ths are still broken (along with all the other broken that abounds) but i think it slows down rocket tag significantly.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: ImperatorK on October 14, 2011, 09:27:47 PM
Hell, for all casters Con is often the second highest stat regardless.

So why reward that? Almost no other class has any ability based on CON because it is something that every character already wants high.

Also, what about undead wizards? Do they not get extra spells per day?
I was agreeing with you.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: SneeR on October 14, 2011, 10:03:35 PM
Hell, for all casters Con is often the second highest stat regardless.
So why reward that? Almost no other class has any ability based on CON because it is something that every character already wants high.

Also, what about undead wizards? Do they not get extra spells per day?
I was agreeing with you.
And I am agreeing with you.  :D


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: veekie on October 14, 2011, 10:23:13 PM
Mind you, you could have the con dependency by requiring you to invest health when you prepare spells, but that just turns the wizard from "killed by a stiff breeze" to "killed by moving air".


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: Endarire on October 15, 2011, 06:59:11 AM
Are we more miffed that casters (especially Wizards) are SAD or that non-casters are MAD that casters are SAD?

If all casters are MAD, Clerics get shafted the most, seemingly needing STR/DEX, CON, WIS, and whatever else.  Druids can still max WIS and probably have enough points left for whatever.

Also, at some point, boosting saves becomes easier than boosting DCs, making things with saves risky or useless.  Don't know when that is, but I want spells and powers with saves to, y'know, work sometime.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: veekie on October 15, 2011, 09:36:37 AM
Overall, I'd say high MAD is superior to SAD game wise, but both are inferior to moderate MAD(2 'key' stats, 2 secondary, preferably no 'default dumped stat'). SAD means every character of the same general archetype would have the exact same stat array, rather than focusing into sub-archetypes, and generally pushing the numbers faster than the game would want to.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: Kajhera on October 15, 2011, 11:43:26 AM
I personally enjoy characters with widely varying ability scores, where I can dump at least 3 and still be effective. I consider it quite a benefit that I can play a very intelligent, weak, clumsy, socially awkward wizard who doesn't notice the world around her and is easily swayed by compulsion or intimidation, and still have an effective character. I identify with her a lot.

The fact I can't do the same with a monk makes me a bit sad (because I'm mad), because that's the class I actually identify with. I might get away with a factotum with a monk's belt made in Carmendine Monk style, though, which is cool, but then I'm more SAD again here! xD

So I feel like there should be effective options both SAD and MAD for varied archetypes; playing an unbalanced character ability-wise should affect you, but not to the point of incompetence. Playing a well-rounded character should have benefits as well.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: oslecamo on October 15, 2011, 12:26:26 PM
So I feel like there should be effective options both SAD and MAD for varied archetypes; playing an unbalanced character ability-wise should affect you, but not to the point of incompetence. Playing a well-rounded character should have benefits as well.

Problem being that's kinda too much to ask from one system. No matter how you look at it, investing in one score is much easier than investing in multiple ones.

If anything, the weak dorky wizard should be a wizard that spent his feats on smart memorization, smart encantation, smart focus and whatnot to make everything tied to Int. The other wizards then get to spend their feats on other stuff at the cost of needing a secondary stat. Kinda how you need multiple feats to make a pure Dex-based melee.

And no, I don't consider that a "feat tax" or whatever because if you could use Dex to melee by default, every melee out there would at most get 13 Str for Power attack and then dump everything into Dex, that also boosts AC, reflex saves and Iniative, while Str only boosts... Carrying capacity.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: Kajhera on October 15, 2011, 12:38:47 PM
So I feel like there should be effective options both SAD and MAD for varied archetypes; playing an unbalanced character ability-wise should affect you, but not to the point of incompetence. Playing a well-rounded character should have benefits as well.

Problem being that's kinda too much to ask from one system. No matter how you look at it, investing in one score is much easier than investing in multiple ones.

If anything, the weak dorky wizard should be a wizard that spent his feats on smart memorization, smart encantation, smart focus and whatnot to make everything tied to Int. The other wizards then get to spend their feats on other stuff at the cost of needing a secondary stat. Kinda how you need multiple feats to make a pure Dex-based melee.

What about having more relatively SAD classes and making multiclassing more powerful? That way the person wanting to play a limited character could play a limited one, while the person who wants to have general skills could get decently level-appropriate power from two sources.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: Kajhera on October 15, 2011, 12:45:44 PM
So I feel like there should be effective options both SAD and MAD for varied archetypes; playing an unbalanced character ability-wise should affect you, but not to the point of incompetence. Playing a well-rounded character should have benefits as well.

Problem being that's kinda too much to ask from one system. No matter how you look at it, investing in one score is much easier than investing in multiple ones.

If anything, the weak dorky wizard should be a wizard that spent his feats on smart memorization, smart encantation, smart focus and whatnot to make everything tied to Int. The other wizards then get to spend their feats on other stuff at the cost of needing a secondary stat. Kinda how you need multiple feats to make a pure Dex-based melee.

And no, I don't consider that a "feat tax" or whatever because if you could use Dex to melee by default, every melee out there would at most get 13 Str for Power attack and then dump everything into Dex, that also boosts AC, reflex saves and Iniative, while Str only boosts... Carrying capacity.

Well, and grapple checks, bull rush, break checks, overrun, and offensive trips. Though I am happy for ways to use dexterity or intelligence on these for fighting styles, having it take some class or feat investment is sensible.

But I do feel classes should be able to remedy it and not just feats.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: Kaelik on October 15, 2011, 01:33:45 PM
And no, I don't consider that a "feat tax" or whatever because if you could use Dex to melee by default, every melee out there would at most get 13 Str for Power attack and then dump everything into Dex, that also boosts AC, reflex saves and Iniative, while Str only boosts... Carrying capacity.

And damage.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: oslecamo on October 15, 2011, 02:02:39 PM
What about having more relatively SAD classes and making multiclassing more powerful? That way the person wanting to play a limited character could play a limited one, while the person who wants to have general skills could get decently level-appropriate power from two sources.

Something like my pseudo-spellcaster?

A character who multiclasses into a caster class can count his other levels as levels of that class for purposes of CL and for the purposes of learning new spells/powers and getting new spell slots/power points. However, she does not retroactively gain spell slots or new spells for caster levels she did not take, nor does she add her other levels level to her character level for the purpose of other class features, such as turn undead and familiars.


Would be quite interesting if a fighter 6 can suddenly take a wizard level and, if he's got at least 14 Int, pick polymorph.

BUT then you have the problem that with the hundreds of classes out there, a SAD character can just go around cherry-picking other classes that share their main stat. You really want the wizard to be able to easily pick the factotum's high level Int-based abilities?

Well, and grapple checks, bull rush, break checks, overrun, and offensive trips. Though I am happy for ways to use dexterity or intelligence on these for fighting styles, having it take some class or feat investment is sensible.

But I do feel classes should be able to remedy it and not just feats.
Then it's not by default. If you want to use another stat than Str for that, then by all means pick the class that focuses on using those options whitout relying on Str.

But when that class also gets another bazillion abilities that are also based on a single stat, then things get bad, because why would you then ever want to invest on your other ability scores?

And no, I don't consider that a "feat tax" or whatever because if you could use Dex to melee by default, every melee out there would at most get 13 Str for Power attack and then dump everything into Dex, that also boosts AC, reflex saves and Iniative, while Str only boosts... Carrying capacity.

And damage.

Already taken in acount. You can get Dex to damage with feats trough shadow blade.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: Kajhera on October 15, 2011, 02:40:25 PM
Yeah, something like that pseudospellcaster.

There are maybe two abilities on the Factotum list that are super-problematic. And they're class abilities. If your pseudofactotum was boosting things like inspiration points, access to level of spell-like abilities, and effective factotum level for abilities, it would make a lot more sense and not cause that problem.

There is not as much spellcasting by default in 3.5. Your average person can't just use Knowledge to get binding rituals, Wisdom to dictate how many spirits they can hold in their mind and Charisma to determine how influenced they are by them and the saving throws for granted powers, or whatever. Closest they can get is magic items / UMD. So pretty much every magic class is both the theoretical default magic + the class influence.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: oslecamo on October 15, 2011, 02:45:17 PM
There is no magic by default in 3.5. Your average person can't just use Knowledge to get binding rituals, Wisdom to dictate how many spirits they can hold in their mind and Charisma to determine how influenced they are by them and the saving throws for granted powers, or whatever. Closest they can get is magic items / UMD. So pretty much every magic class is both the theoretical default magic + the class influence.

Pretty much every monster SLA out there is Cha-based, including feats like Hidden Talent and other ones that grant some SLA uses, and the gnome's natural SLAs. Prcs that grant SLAs to noncasters also have them be Cha-based most if not all the time.

And  UMD itself is also Cha based.

So yes, there's some strong "magic defaults" out there.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: Kajhera on October 15, 2011, 02:47:20 PM
There is no magic by default in 3.5. Your average person can't just use Knowledge to get binding rituals, Wisdom to dictate how many spirits they can hold in their mind and Charisma to determine how influenced they are by them and the saving throws for granted powers, or whatever. Closest they can get is magic items / UMD. So pretty much every magic class is both the theoretical default magic + the class influence.

Pretty much every monster SLA out there is Cha-based, including feats like Hidden Talent and other ones that grant some SLA uses, and the gnome's natural SLAs.

And  UMD itself is also Cha based.

So yes, there's some strong "magic defaults" out there.

Yeah, I've been rethinking that statement. Charisma definitely seems to be the magic default.

For Difficulty Class, at least. Not bonus spells generally.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: oslecamo on October 15, 2011, 02:50:09 PM
Well, it would be quite interesting if all spellcasters used Cha as their main stat (who's a dump stat now?). Int still gives skill points and Wis still boosts will saves, and they could be used as secondary stats for determining extra spells per day for their respective classes, while Cha controls DCs and unlocking of new spell levels.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: Kajhera on October 15, 2011, 03:08:35 PM
Well, it would be quite interesting if all spellcasters used Cha as their main stat (who's a dump stat now?). Int still gives skill points and Wis still boosts will saves, and they could be used as secondary stats for determining extra spells per day for their respective classes, while Cha controls DCs and unlocking of new spell levels.

Maybe just the save DC. My antisocial wizards would be able to focus on utility and buffs, but in any direct contest of wills they would be lackluster; and find it difficult to charm any but the weakest minds. They'd be functionally different from and weaker than charismatic wizards, but still functional.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: Bozwevial on October 15, 2011, 03:15:07 PM
I'm going to voice my dislike of tying all spellcasting to a specific stat priority again, because that locks out certain archetypes. If every single spellcaster has to pump Charisma to learn new spell levels, races with poor Charisma go from being bad sorcerers to being universally bad spellcasters.

I really don't see why you need to give spells an ability score prerequisite at all.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: oslecamo on October 15, 2011, 03:22:02 PM
That's why I said add feats like "Smart Spell" and "Wise spell" for dorky wizards and clerics,just like there's Weapon Finesse for melee.

I really don't see why you need to give spells an ability score prerequisite at all.

Because the main problem with magic it's precisely because it allows you a massive variety of effects with little on the way of prerequisites? And you want to make it even stronger by removing those already there (RAW wizards need an Int of 10+spell level to cast it)? I guess it's the natural extension of "noncasters can't have nice things", the "casters need even moar nice things!".


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: Kajhera on October 15, 2011, 03:23:13 PM
I'm going to voice my dislike of tying all spellcasting to a specific stat priority again, because that locks out certain archetypes. If every single spellcaster has to pump Charisma to learn new spell levels, races with poor Charisma go from being bad sorcerers to being universally bad spellcasters.

I really don't see why you need to give spells an ability score prerequisite at all.

So if a arcanist (wizard/sorcerer) got normal progression regardless of their scores, bonus spells per day and spells known per level from Intelligence, set their difficulty class with Charisma, could switch to one or the other with a feat, and ... hmm this sounds complicated.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: Bozwevial on October 15, 2011, 03:36:04 PM
That's why I said add feats like "Smart Spell" and "Wise spell" for dorky wizards and clerics,just like there's Weapon Finesse for melee.
Why should you have to pay a feat tax for that not to be the default? That's right up there with Natural Spell in terms of bad design. If it's part of the core concept (for wizards, being able to use magic because you have studied it all your life), you shouldn't have to pay for it. It should be part and parcel of the class, just like swashbucklers get Weapon Finesse for free, because having a class that favors finesse over brute force and then telling it that it can't actually do that without spending one of its limited feat slots is stupid.

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Because the main problem with magic it's precisely because it allows you a massive variety of effects with little on the way of prerequisites? And you want to make it even stronger by removing those already there? I guess it's the natural extension of "noncasters can't have nice things", the "casters need even moar nice things!".
Will you can it? I am not saying either of those things. That's bullshit and you know it. I'm saying that it doesn't make sense to apply the standard in some cases and not in others, because if we fix things so that casters and noncasters are equal there's no need for it. It's not consistent. It's just sloppy. If you can go into fighter with an 8 in Strength and still get all your class abilities, you should damned well be able to go into wizard with an 8 in Intelligence and be able to cast all your spells. You won't get many, because it's frankly a stupid thing to do, but the option should be there.

I want casters and noncasters to be equally viable. I'm pretty sure everyone in this topic wants that. I do not, however, want an arbitrary minimum score to be a wizard or cleric or sorcerer, because that's what it boils down to. If you have to apply that standard, it says something about the design.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: ImperatorK on October 15, 2011, 03:50:58 PM
But here's the thing:
Casters get ASTRONOMICAL COSMIC POWER with the requirement that they have to have high score in an attribute that they WILL max out regardless, for bonus spells and DCs.
Noncasters have only their class features and... they're not full spellcasting spells.
So yeah...


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: Bozwevial on October 15, 2011, 04:02:37 PM
But here's the thing:
Casters get ASTRONOMICAL COSMIC POWER with the requirement that they have to have high score in an attribute that they WILL max out regardless, for bonus spells and DCs.
Noncasters have only their class features and... they're not full spellcasting spells.
So yeah...
Of course this imbalance exists. That's why this topic exists at all. I'm assuming that the rebalancing of casters is accompanied by other changes that help balance them with noncasters, otherwise what's the point?

Here's the thing: That mechanic is completely arbitrary. Assume for a minute that we live in an ideal world where fighters and wizards are equally useful and viable. If I turned around and told fighters that they couldn't use their high level abilities without a minimum Strength, you'd all cry foul.  Why should this rule apply to casters, then? It doesn't have a mechanical backing, because now spells aren't inherently better, so there's no need to lock them away behind a "you must be this smart to ride" sign. It exists solely as a nod to the flavor. It also serves to piss off players, because if they don't meet those arbitrary standards they do not get level appropriate abilities. That's absolutely terrible design.

So get rid of it. In the hypothetical balanced system, at best it serves no purpose and at worst it hinders balance. In 3.5 as it stands, it does absolutely nothing to ensure balance.



Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: oslecamo on October 15, 2011, 04:13:22 PM
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Because the main problem with magic it's precisely because it allows you a massive variety of effects with little on the way of prerequisites? And you want to make it even stronger by removing those already there? I guess it's the natural extension of "noncasters can't have nice things", the "casters need even moar nice things!".
Will you can it? I am not saying either of those things. That's bullshit and you know it. I'm saying that it doesn't make sense to apply the standard in some cases and not in others, because if we fix things so that casters and noncasters are equal there's no need for it. It's not consistent. It's just sloppy.
This isn't 4th edition where all classes are the same with diferent paint jobs! This! Is! 3rd edition, and yes each class works in a diferent way!

If you can go into fighter with an 8 in Strength and still get all your class abilities, you should damned well be able to go into wizard with an 8 in Intelligence and be able to cast all your spells. You won't get many, because it's frankly a stupid thing to do, but the option should be there.
Several of the key fighter feats have certain ability scores as prerequisites.

Of course this imbalance exists. That's why this topic exists at all. I'm assuming that the rebalancing of casters is accompanied by other changes that help balance them with noncasters, otherwise what's the point?
Excellent question. If you're just going to shoot down any sugestion that makes casters  weaker in any way, then casters will still remain on top.

Here's the thing: That mechanic is completely arbitrary. Assume for a minute that we live in an ideal world where fighters and wizards are equally useful and viable. If I turned around and told fighters that they couldn't use their high level abilities without a minimum Strength, you'd all cry foul.  

Again, power attack already needs Str 13 to pick, and the two-weapon fighting feats have scaling Dex prerequisites.

You can in theory make a melee fighter whitout power attack, but... Good luck with that. You'll need it.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: Bozwevial on October 15, 2011, 04:26:27 PM
This isn't 4th edition where all classes are the same with diferent paint jobs! This! Is! 3rd edition, and yes each class works in a diferent way!
And it's broken. And I want to fix it, while in the process getting rid of a legacy mechanic that is outdated.

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Several of the key fighter feats have certain ability scores as prerequisites. Swashbucklers later need Int on top of their Dex.
And making those feats have an ability score prerequisite is also stupid, and we should get rid of that too. Swashbucklers meanwhile get benefits out of Intelligence, but they don't need a minimum score to get their abilities.

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Again, power attack already needs Str 13 to pick, and the two-weapon fighting feats have scaling Dex prerequisites.
And again, that's a stupid mechanic. Even WotC realized that and leaned away from it later. Tome of Battle doesn't force crusaders to have a specific ability score at X or greater to use Strike of Righteous Vitality. Get rid of the requirements for feats and spells alike.

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Excellent question. If you're just going to shoot down any sugestion that makes casters a little worst, then casters will still remain on top.
I'm quoting you out of order here because I'm apparently not coming across clearly and I want this to stand out.

I don't care whether you make casters worse or make noncasters better or both to balance the game. In a system where they are balanced, this ability score prerequisite thing serves no purpose other than denying someone level-appropriate abilities, which is a bad thing. In this system, where they are definitely not balanced, it still serves no purpose because it doesn't narrow the gap at all. In both cases, it's a mechanic that only works in corner cases. So get rid of it. Yes, it's a buff to casters, but it pales in comparison to the problems that are already there, and presumably that's not the only thing you're doing to the casters. You're nerfing them at the same time, in which case it doesn't matter, or you're buffing everyone else up to that level, in which case...it doesn't matter.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: oslecamo on October 15, 2011, 04:47:53 PM
This isn't 4th edition where all classes are the same with diferent paint jobs! This! Is! 3rd edition, and yes each class works in a diferent way!
And it's broken. And I want to fix it, while in the process getting rid of a legacy mechanic that is outdated.
Then why don't just pick another gaming system? Plenty out there, and saves you the work from remaking D&D from scratch.

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Several of the key fighter feats have certain ability scores as prerequisites. Swashbucklers later need Int on top of their Dex.
And making those feats have an ability score prerequisite is also stupid, and we should get rid of that too. Swashbucklers meanwhile get benefits out of Intelligence, but they don't need a minimum score to get their abilities.
They need a minimum of 12. A bonus of +0 is as good as not having the ability at all.

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Again, power attack already needs Str 13 to pick, and the two-weapon fighting feats have scaling Dex prerequisites.
And again, that's a stupid mechanic. Even WotC realized that and leaned away from it later. Tome of Battle doesn't force crusaders to have a specific ability score at X or greater to use Strike of Righteous Vitality. Get rid of the requirements for feats and spells alike.
Because maneuvers are weaker than spells. And again, a warblade whitout Int bonus is basically losing several of his class abilities, as a +0 bonus may as well not be there.

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Excellent question. If you're just going to shoot down any sugestion that makes casters a little worst, then casters will still remain on top.
I'm quoting you out of order here because I'm apparently not coming across clearly and I want this to stand out.

I don't care whether you make casters worse or make noncasters better or both to balance the game. In a system where they are balanced, this ability score prerequisite thing serves no purpose other than denying someone level-appropriate abilities, which is a bad thing. In this system, where they are definitely not balanced, it still serves no purpose because it doesn't narrow the gap at all. In both cases, it's a mechanic that only works in corner cases. So get rid of it.
Watching out for corners is one of the finer points of good design. Much of D&D's problems are precisely because those "corners" weren't taken in acount and TO will use and abuse every unpolished corner they can find. So why take the risk that someone finds some loophole that allows them to cast the spell once you remove the ability prerequisites?

Yes, it's a buff to casters, but it pales in comparison to the problems that are already there, and presumably that's not the only thing you're doing to the casters. You're nerfing them at the same time, in which case it doesn't matter, or you're buffing everyone else up to that level, in which case...it doesn't matter.
See, now that is actual bad design. The idea of "Casters are already strong, so it's allright to make them stronger" has possibly been more damaging to 3rd edition than anything else. Just because something is broken, is no valid excuse at all to increase its power even more.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: Bozwevial on October 15, 2011, 05:06:14 PM
Then why don't just pick another gaming system? Plenty out there, and saves you the work from remaking D&D from scratch.
You tell me. You're in this thread, after all. Why are you discussing this instead of just playing another system?

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Because maneuvers are weaker than spells. And again, a warblade whitout Int bonus is basically losing several of his class abilities, as a +0 bonus may as well not be there.
So the mechanic exists to balance casters and noncasters? Boy, it's sure doing a great job.

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Watching out for corners is one of the finer points of good design. Much of D&D's problems are precisely because those "corners" weren't taken in acount and TO will use and abuse every unpolished corner they can find. So why take the risk that someone finds some loophole that allows them to cast the spell once you remove the ability prerequisites?
Uh, because that's what I want? I don't want someone to have to have a certain Strength to take Power Attack, and I don't want someone to have to have a certain Intelligence to cast Scorching Ray. The ability score prerequisite means that you're being denied abilities which are level-appropriate if you don't meet those standards, and it only works in those corner cases. If it's the fixed 3.5, you're being fucked out of the ability to perform adequately. If it's normal 3.5, it does...pretty much nothing.


Quote
See, now that is actual bad design. The idea of "Casters are already strong, so it's allright to make them stronger" has possibly been more damaging to 3rd edition than anything else. Just because something is broken, is no valid excuse at all to make it even more broken.
You keep missing the point here.

1) In the case of an overall rebalance, you can get away with this because the net result is a nerf to casters or a buff to noncasters or both. If I add two to a number and at the same time subtract five, the net result is a decrease in the value of the number.

2) If that metaphor were extended to this case, I would be adding two and subtracting approximately eleven thousand. It's seriously not a big deal to do this without touching noncasters because, as you pointed out, the mechanic only applies in corner cases. It doesn't work even then. It would be like me expanding the cleric's skill list to include Use Rope. Yes, it's a buff to a caster, but it's not going to make the class explode with power. No one who wouldn't play a cleric before will play a cleric now because oh fuck yes, Use Rope. And if giving nice things to casters makes you that uncomfortable, get rid of ability score prerequisites in general (because the mechanic is universally bad). That's honestly more of a buff to noncasters, and it bears repeating that balancing the two is what I've been advocating since the beginning.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: veekie on October 15, 2011, 06:49:28 PM
You could just use the schematic laid out earlier.
Using the tri-stat dependency, then with specific waivers for classes, you can then have races be bad at certain TYPES of magic, but not all magic.

So like so:
Int - Spells Known
Wis - Spell DCs
Cha - Spells per day.

Wizard - Waive Cha, they get a static number of slots per level, plus bonus slots for specializing. Drop the open ended spell learning mechanic for an Int based one, with freebie knowns for your favored school. More favorable spells known formula than the sorc.
This makes them the preferred avenue for low charisma or high intelligence races, and with the right spell selection you can minimize the Wis needs. Toss in an Int based class feature to modify a prepared spell to something else known a number of times a day. Thematically favors the crochety wizard.

Sorceror - Waive Wis, they get a spell DC bonus based off their caster level. Their slots are directly dependent on their charisma, and Int determines spells known beyond the basic spell they know + the spells off their bloodlines. Throw in class features that lets you use more spell slots for more bang(slots to metamagic conversion etc) or special effects(bloodline based slot burning abilities) and you're good.
Most magically oriented races are naturally charismatic and you can make do with a minimal number of spells known. its also the go-to for magic users that are weak in their mentals, because your spell DCs tend to remain up to date. Maybe you can even have a physically oriented sorceror that dumps his slots into buff spells and sacs spare spells into physically augmenting bloodline abilities. Thematically favors the reckless sorceror.

Cleric - Waive Int, what with knowing all the spells their god would grant, based on widened domain selection(that is, domains contain more than that 1 spell per spell level). Wis would then go to spell DCs and Cha to spell slots. Maybe screw around with the spontaneous casting a bit(1 domain gets its spells spontaneous like the existing cure/inflict system) and use wis based domain specials.
Thematically you get the wise or charismatic priest who tends to be a bit poor with the logical side of things.


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: SneeR on October 16, 2011, 02:04:44 AM
You could just use the schematic laid out earlier.
Using the tri-stat dependency, then with specific waivers for classes, you can then have races be bad at certain TYPES of magic, but not all magic.

So like so:
Int - Spells Known
Wis - Spell DCs
Cha - Spells per day.

Still think that CHA should determine DC and WIS the spells per day. CHA has a history of granting the DC for all SLAs, and it is supposed to be FORCE of personality, so how much force you can put behind your spells determines their power...


Title: Re: How many bonus spells should casters get via a high stat?
Post by: veekie on October 16, 2011, 11:23:04 AM
That is also possible. In that case:

Wizards get spells known off Int, and spell slots off Wis. Waiving Cha, they have to contend with fixed spell DCs for their spell levels.
Sorcerors get spells known off Int, and DCs off Cha. Waiving Wis, they get a large number of spells per day from advancement alone, with added abilities to get some lower level spells as SLAs.
Clerics get slots off Wis and DCs off Cha. Waiving Int, they remain more or less unchanged.